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Goat Farm shooting… Gunmen AK-47s linked to massacres -police

With searching questions being asked about their failure to capture a group of gunmen at Christmas Falls two weeks ago, police yesterday said that one of the two rifles found on two gunmen shot dead at Goat Farm in the interior belongs to the army and were used in the Lusignan and Bartica massacres.

The lawmen also disclosed that four men accused of harbouring the country’s most wanted man, Rondell Rawlins were arrested in a house in Linden on Tuesday.

Police also confirmed yesterday that the two dead men whose bodies were flown out from the interior to Georgetown on Tuesday were positively identified by their relatives yesterday - one of them Robin Julius Chung called Chung Boy was only 15. His partner in crime Cecil Ramcharran called ‘Uncle Willie’ is said to be 54.

In a press statement issued last evening the police disclosed that following investigations, four men were on Tuesday arrested in a house at Retrieve, Linden, on suspicion of harbouring Rawlins. The police said the men are in their custody assisting with the investigations.

A top joint services official told this newspaper that Rawlins and his gang had spent time in the mining town after the January 26 slaughter at Lusignan and used Linden as a launching pad for the February 17 Bartica massacre. They were in Linden several weeks following the Bartica killings, before moving deeper into the dense jungle at Christmas Falls, located some 300 miles in the Upper Berbice River, the source contended.

Meanwhile, using ballistic tests, police said they were able to link the two AK- 47 rifles recovered from Cecil Ramcharran and Robin Chung at Goat Farm, Berbice River, on Monday to the killings at Lusignan on January 26, 2008 and at Bartica on February 17. One of the weapons they said is the property of the Guyana Defence Force. The rifle was stolen during an ambush of a team of soldiers by armed men at Buxton on January 23, 2008, where Corporal Ivor Williams was shot and killed.

The police said the weapons were also used at the robbery/murder at Triumph, ECD, on December 16, 2007, where Fazal Hakim and Rajesh Singh were killed. Ballistics tests are still being done on exhibits collected at other scenes, the release added. Police ballistic tests have been greeted with some skepticism by some parts of society.

Diary

Police had linked the two massacres to the Buxton/ Agricola criminal gang being headed by Rawlins and a diary left behind when police first confronted the gunmen at Christmas Falls two weeks ago reportedly bore details of Rawlins planning and executing the massacres for the alleged abduction of his teenager child mother.

Crime Chief Seelall Persaud when asked about their operation yesterday would only say that their plan remained the same. He said the security forces’ aim was to capture all of the gunmen, including Rawlins, who are believed to be still in the jungle.

A high-ranking military official told Stabroek News yesterday that based upon the results and reports available the Christmas Falls operational was poorly planned and poorly executed. The officer said clearly there was little or no coordination between the police and the army, pointing out that the initial attack on he criminals’ camp was done by the police and it was only after the gunmen escaped that the solders were called in.

“How could you plan and go on such a major operation without involving your premier law enforcement agency,” the officer skilled in jungle warfare said. The officer said even days after the shooting at Christmas Falls, the security forces insisted that the gunmen were trapped, yet on Monday a number of them were found some 90 miles away from where they were thought to be cornered.

“This is evidence of poor planning. Most of the top officers in the army and police were exposed to international training I don’t believe this is what they produce,” the officer commented. He insisted that the army had a number of skilled officers and it was a pity that they were not involved from the very inception of the operation. Noting that the administration should demand more from its lawmen, the officer said had it been in other jurisdictions senior officers would have been disciplined for such failures.

Asked what should be done now to regain control, the officer said the security forces needed to pull out from the area and start afresh. “They need to go back to the drawing board and assess where they went wrong and begin all over again,” the officer declared. He said it made no sense staying in the jungle as it was costing the government and also exposing the limitations of the country’s security forces.

Cooking utensils

The security forces had initially reported that during their first encounter with the gunmen at Christmas Falls, one of them Otis Fifee was killed and some six others escaped, with only two weapons, shirtless and without any bags. However, Chung and Ramcharran were found with cooking utensils, the holy books, ammunition and others items. This raises the question of whether they were indeed at Christmas Falls or were in another area.

One of them also had a Republic Bank visa card, a Canadian Bank gold card and a Bwee Miles card all belonging to slain agriculture minister, Satyadeow Sawh. Asked why the gunmen would still keep these cards belonging to a man they allegedly killed two years ago, a senior police officer said that the psychopathic mindset of the criminals would cause them to keep these items. He pointed out that there had been several cases in the United States and in other developed countries where research has shown that the criminals look back at things which they took from their victims, whether it is credit cards, like in this case or whether they mark their gun for every victim they shoot. “It is like their satisfaction or their achievement,” the officer explained. He observed that for the ordinary mind it seems weird or strange that a man or men who are struggling to evade the joint services would have things like that in their possession. “But there is such a theory in criminology and explaining the behaviour of criminals,” the officer asserted. One comment on the Stabroek News website suggested that the card was being used as a tool to recruit.

Reports are that following the June 6 shoot-out at Christmas Falls the gunmen numbering over ten split up into two groups. One of the groups was headed by Ramcharran and was intercepted following the hijacking of a minibus on the Aroaima trail on Monday morning. Rawlins and another group of gunmen are said to have headed in another direction.
A resident of a hinterland community with extensive knowledge of the terrain told this newspaper that the road to the Christmas Falls area follows the UNAMCO road along the left bank of the Berbice River. The resident said that Kwakwani is on the right bank while Ituni, Aroaima and Goat Farm are on the left side of the river. The resident said all of these communities are between 80-100 miles downriver from Christmas Falls.

On June 6 members of the joint services responding to intelligence reports that Rawlins and his men were hiding out at Christmas Falls some 300 miles up the Berbice River, descended on the forested area. Once there they came under fire from around seven men, one of whom was Fifee who was shot and killed. The other six men, including Rawlins however managed to escape leaving behind a cache of arms and ammunition, some of which have been confirmed by police as having been stolen from the Bartica Police station the night that community came under siege by gunmen. The security forces had also discovered that the men were housed in an area with four buildings.
They had foodstuff to last several weeks in a large kitchen, which also had a gas stove, generator and solar energy. In addition, there were six portable tents, four hammocks, three mattresses, a mini-stereo system, a DVD player, a cell phone, a hand-held radio set, clothing, medical supplies and a Bible.

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81 Responses to “Goat Farm shooting… Gunmen AK-47s linked to massacres -police”

amen-ra
on June 19th, 2008 6:43 am

THE POLICE EXCUSES IS GETTING HILARIOUS ALL THE TIME, AND ALSO THE COMMENTS SAYING THAT IN OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE THE USA CRIMINALS KEEP ITEMS AS TROPHY. WELL THIS STORY IS GETTING LIKE A JERRY LEWIS COMEDY SHOW, AND THE REPORTING IS GETTING CONFUSING MORE AND MORE ONE TIME WE READ THAT FINEMAN CARRIED OUT THE MASSACRE TO AVENGE HIS SISTER NOW IT’S DONE TO AVENGE HIS MISSING GIRLFRIEND WHICH ONE IS IT. BY THE WAY WHAT HAPPENED TO TENISHA MORGAN WHY NO MORE NEWS COVERAGE ON HER, SOMETHING IS SMELLING HERE OR IS IT JUST ME.

[Reply to this]
bluegrass
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 9:03 am:
your denial of what is happening is getting like a JL commedy and nothing is smelling in here its just you. lol.

[Reply to this]
justice4allguyana
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 10:43 am:
Well the police have to make some kind of statement….

Who and where is Tenisha Morgan. It was said the the Phantom group kidnapped her in order for Fineman to give himself up.

We he didnt so i guess they killed her.

[Reply to this]
birdie92k
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 4:20 pm:
Your “caps lock” is on:) Unless you’re angry? I’m assuming they can’t report on what they have no information about. I’m sure that the GPF is doing what it can to stay on top of the situation while trying to keep its members alive. You should be more constructive as should the majority of individuals posting comments on here. Yes you can criticize but you should do so constructively instead of doing what you’re doing. Ok?

[Reply to this]
timeless
on June 19th, 2008 7:31 am

are these people REALLY psychopaths? i don’t know that people who are forced into a situation because of circumstances could be labeled such. and furthermore, i don’t believe people forced into a certain position would need persuasion of any sort to convince them to join any group. If the gpf wants to hold firm o that type of reasoning then i believe they have a couple of villages/towns of very young, unemployed, police-harassed, frustrated ‘psychopaths’ to deal with. I believe most of these young men are venerable because of their situation and resort to crime more as a means to an end and not just for some morbid sense of gratification. the age of these men being killed sould be saying something! i am by no means legitimizing these acts but someone needs to take a serious look at the WHY in this scenario!!!!!!

[Reply to this]
gtmassive
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 3:10 pm:
Forced into a situation? First of all, some of them should be in school!

If the parents don’t bend the tree when it is young, then it is not going to grow the way they want it to.

[Reply to this]
birdie92k
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 4:15 pm:
So “real psychopaths” aren’t living in a situation forcing them into becoming what they are? Put more thought into your analysis instead of looking like you’re just ranting about nonesense. The fact that they are capable of killing without remorse is a legitimate argument for them to be classed as psychopaths. Thanks for coming out.

[Reply to this]
stevemadra
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 7:12 pm:
Very smart of you timeless to blame the muder of mankind and the butchering of young children on the situations that a majority of guyanese face daily.
Maybe if it was your family member or your child you had to see mutilated…then you might not have as much remorse for such men.
Have you ever had a family member close to you robbed of their life and thier future. How dare you presume to justify those actions.

You’re safe in your american home (as the flag suggests i may be wrong) thats why u can make such careless statements, but maybe u should come back and live in fear like the REAL guyanese population of maybe one night when you’re asleep someone will break your door down and do wat those men did to your family and you’ll say to them its ok…they’re not the ones to be blammed…that they were forced into that situation.

[Reply to this]
timeless
In reply to the above comment on June 21st, 2008 8:51 am:
sorry people but please place as much emphasis on: “i am by no means legitimizing these acts but someone needs to take a serious look at the WHY in this scenario!!!!!!”

[Reply to this]
Ricky
on June 19th, 2008 7:32 am

This heartwrenching, a mother’s teenage aged child disappears into a criminal gang and becomes a criminal. where are the fathers the go look for these boys and why aren’t the mothers reporting to the Police when there sons join up with these groups if they are not doing so already?

Again Karter 1 - needs to see and understand that this is the Government’s responsibility - which ever party that is leading to strive for equality and the creation of jobs and stop blaming someone else for problems you are Supervising. Collective bargaining. There is one Guyana with many races, good people and bad people. Good government managers and bad managers, and so by changing them hopfully the learn to do things better for the Country, For the People.

[Reply to this]
borntwice
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 9:07 am:
I totally agree where are the fathers I guess that they sow their wild oats and that is the end of their responsibility. Just like in the USA they wind up in jail or killed and blame everyone else for their sad state of affairs. I grew up with one parent but that did not not pushed me to a life of crime.I never had a proper job until I came to the US.I know people will say that they are not so lucky but where there is a will there is a way it might not be the US but there are a whole lot of other places to go .

[Reply to this]
La vie est bonne!
on June 19th, 2008 7:35 am

This is a joke. Every crime is linke to the massacres.
Jeeze, the GPF is out of their league. They have no clue about zilch.
Give the masses some credit!

[Reply to this]
nickiegyrl
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 12:57 pm:
I also think it’s a joke ,if it int d police needs to start acting like it int by first freeing d young man that in jail for d Lusignan killings cause i dont c how they claiming that he did it and at d same time saying d 2 ak 47 riflies found on Ramchrram and Chung r linked to d murders in Lusignan .

[Reply to this]
birdie92k
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 4:25 pm:
La vie est bonne - do you have a better idea who are behind the killings? No? Well when you have that let us know eh. However, I do agree that the masses should be given more credit than they are because I can safely say that the general public in GY are at least street smart.

nickiegyrl - Speak English much? Don’t expect to be taken seriously with “r”, “c” and “d”. Just letting you know. Cheers.

[Reply to this]
bluegrass
on June 19th, 2008 8:24 am

the real truth is revealing, each and every one that is/were aiding and abetting these criminals are coming to an end, and those critics and sympathizers can now swallow the bitter pill that fineman and his criminal gang is real and is not a smoke screen.
the denial of buxton being a training ground for criminals can no longer be denied and this now validates the activity of the GPF is in the interest of the country stability and national security. kudos to you guys[GPF.]

[Reply to this]
Karter 1
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 9:01 am:
These Criminals are considered martrys fighting for Freedom & Liberty .The GDF needs to keep up the pressure & get rid of these criminal elements.As for Ricky ,every gov has the responsibility as u say.so do the opposition parties.If Corbin can’t win elections he want it by force.U have to see who has the record for walking out of parliment.It is clear to see this country is split along racial lines since inception & it will need sincere & deep conviction on both racial majority to truly come together.This I say sound easy but is really hard to do .Hope in Change

[Reply to this]
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 3:28 pm:
I guess Roger Khan fit in that category.

kmatt
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 9:17 am:
Bluegrass,

I think you need to wake up and smell the fresh coffee.GDF and GPF have no clue what is going on…they are try to pick a needle out of a hay stack…Any whisper of Fineman, your adding and abedding..Get real… Guyana has the most imcompetent( GDF,GPF, Government officals) running the country. Real picture like a picture..lol

[Reply to this]
gtmassive
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 3:25 pm:
The GPF and GDF are incompetent because they are not ran independently. The incompetent government controls them

stevemadra
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 7:31 pm:
Everyone is quick to criticise the GDF and the GPF, but i wonder which one of you would risk your lives for such mediocre salaries as these men go out and do daily…
Yes they’re not as brilliant as you people, but since you guys are so much smarter why don’t you volunteer to help these so called “incompetent men”.

The fact is most of you seem to be foreignors than ran for better and has never done anything to contribute to the better of guyana and its society. I know I’ve haven’t done much either but i commend these men for risking their lives each day to try to ensure the protection of guyanese people…
since these bloggers have other geniouses to protect them.

I’ve never heard of any entity improving their abilities because of the great amount of criticism they recieve.Maybe we should get rid of all these incompetent people and fold our hands and wait for you to come and do a better job…while the criminals (whoever they are) continue to murder.

[Reply to this]
Scotty
on June 19th, 2008 8:42 am

How much more fabrication can the masses take. Every criminal incident that occurs in Guyana has two sources. The PNC or the illusive Fine-man, I remember when it was the Phantom Gang and Blackie. I’m would like to know what the man in the street make of all this? It appalling to think we as Guyanese are buying into these manufactured stories.

[Reply to this]
BOEING777
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 9:58 am:
Hey you got that spot on!!!
The GPF always makes speculations before having any facts or evidence.
It goes to show that they never do any intelligence gathering or thorough investigations.
Is there any wonder why many crimes are unsolved!!! I think not!!!

[Reply to this]
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 10:15 am:
Scotty don’t tek worries…i man beating out to guyana next week and as a flat-foota i gon see what i can pick up off de streets. I’ll keep you posted right rasta.

[Reply to this]
Alli
on June 19th, 2008 8:44 am

more drama. until they police can bring in some of the ‘killers’ for questioning there would never be the end to the never ending crime in such a small country

[Reply to this]
Karter 1
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 9:10 am:
They cant ,just look at todays Kaiteur News front page,U see where these criminals get their support

[Reply to this]
colt45
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 9:12 am:
now how can the police bring them in when they are out to kill the police and everyone who gets in the way. Try talking sense to someone who is pointing a gun at you and trying to kill you, and see how far you get.

[Reply to this]
Alli
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 11:23 am:
with this attitude Guyana would remain a killing field and a recruiting ground for killers of competing gangs.

You should ask yourself what are the root causes of crime in Guyana? and why are these teenagers being recruited to kill in gang warfare?And now that these youngmen are killed they are all linked to both Lusignan and Bartica massacres.
Guess the police have become expert crime solvers overnight.

HyBriD
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 10:16 am:
Why do you think they excluded the GDF in the initial attack at Christmas Falls? Hhmmm….
The GDF is the better of the two to carry out such operations. I’m afraid that the way this is going, the criminals are only being turned into heroes for some people. I hope ”fineman” can be brought out alive then hanged.

[Reply to this]
gtmassive
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 3:34 pm:
The GDF was excluded, because the GPF either wanted the bandits to get away, or they want the money hanging over fineman’s head for themselves.
colt45
on June 19th, 2008 9:09 am

Kudos to the joint services for ridding the country of these elements. There are some who seem to symphatise with these gunmen who wreaked terror on the innocent civilians of Guyana and put fear into the minds of those overseas who want to visit or invest in our mother country. It is quite exasperating to see some criticize the GPF when they bring down criminals and still criticize the GPF when they fail to apprehend them.
Come on people, get real.

[Reply to this]
A380100
on June 19th, 2008 10:40 am

The GDF should have been involved from day 1 since this was in the jungle. I have first hand knowledge how the police operate, once they were hunting a gang of gunmen that were staying in an house behind mine, and the all went to the front of the house and the gunmen casually ran through my yard to escape. The police then riddled the house with bullets and no one was inside.

[Reply to this]
BigK
on June 19th, 2008 10:42 am

Typical Guyanese!

“They need to go back to the drawing board and assess where they went wrong and begin all over again,” the officer declared.

This article as well as a few of the comments so far is negative. Come on people!

Let’s ignore all the success we’ve had over the past weeks and go back to the pain ole drawing board - Yep, let’s reinvent the wheel while we’re at it.

[Reply to this]
La vie est bonne!
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 6:31 pm:
More stories of who shot John ha ha ha

[Reply to this]
popeoplefedup
on June 19th, 2008 10:45 am

I think the Black activists ought to concern themselves with the downward spiral of these young black men, and possibly women.

It is one thing to blame the system, which of course has failed black, east indian and every other group, but at the end of the day, we all still have to survive. So it begins with our homes, ensuring that the family unit contributes to ordering society, as not only the law does that.

With these young men, not only poverty should be blamed, but the fractured households they came from. In all the articles I read, there is no mention of a father figure, or patriarchal authority. This is often times a disaster waiting to happen, as I notice in this economically prosperous country of my writing. Even wealth cannot stymie the decline into crime here; it has to do with the preponderance of these matriarchal, single parent households, which often times fail to discipline the charges.

The same is true for Guyana, and the target population is once again, the blacks.

From the projects of New York, to the parishes of Bermuda to the villages of Guyana, the black family is afflicted in more ways than one.

There are few safety nets in the form of familial support when a Chung Boy or Mudup or Sancho go astray. This contrasts with the east indian family unit which often times has that safety mechanism in the form of a father or grandparent. Of course, many east indian households are afflicted by similar and sometimes other scourges, but comparatively in this regard, it would seem the family unit of the blacks is deficient. And it has nothing to do with PPP support or access to wealth, as there are many east indians out there who subsist on little or nothing.

Finally, I expect to see the Minister of Social Services employing a strident system to penalize parents whose children, registered at a school, are not attending. Here students have to make a percentage attendance, and if they fail to comply, both they and their parents are called before the court. We need such measures for these children who get brainwashed. The schools of course have to be tasked with the responsibility of recording, communicating truancy so that children and parents can be prosecuted.

[Reply to this]
ankoko
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 12:40 pm:
These are factual and very good observations. We now need to go beyond recognizing this complex problem. Let’s lay the blame squarely where it belongs and seek viable solutions.
Blame
At risk of being called ANTI-whatever, I lay the blame on rhe shoulders of the current administration! THEY reduced and disbanded whatever social services structures there were when they were placed in office. THEY gutted the Works Ministry, which was supposed to have a workforce mirroring the population and now everything is contracted to contractors who hire based on their own system which seems not to have any set requirements except that it is obviously done with profits in mind.
This opens the door for lots of our male heads of households to have to seek employment in the interior areas of Guyana and abroad leaving their families to survive and grow - however!
Next came the situation with the schools - We now have teachers who are are in it ‘only for the money’! Result - The children get an unequal education and are not prepared for the ‘workforce’
There are no structures in place for activity for youth to keep them away from the beckoning drug and criminal activities.
No longer can a Village raise a child. It is no longer OK for an elder to rebuke a child other than their own for any misdeed.
Solutions
Let’s not use the race divide here. This must be for all Guyanese.
More employment opportunities.
More programs to help youth focus on healthy and progressive things when out of school. Introduce some summer camps and school programs to help the slower ones to catch up
Parents - Have a kitchen garden and raise some stocks - the children would then have plots and animals to tend after school.
This is only the beginning…………………………………………. We should then have a better quality of public servant……….

[Reply to this]
cochore
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 12:52 pm:
Remember the National Service! well that institution was the valve that removed the drop-outs and primary school graduates off the city and village streets, so that gangs wouldn’t corrupt these young minds. NATIONAL SERVICE should have been amended not ended, because it helped to stabilize deviant behaviour by youngsters. A government without imagination and only engaging in party politics has brought Guyana to this tragic point in history. Guyana is not creating enough jobs for the idle young folks, thus the preoccupation with crime and gangs. Right now Guyana’s economy is growing at about 7-10% a year, however, to solve some of these problems they need growth in the range of at least 20-25% a year. An almost impossible task ahead if you need to ask.

[Reply to this]
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 1:55 pm:
I sorry to tell you this but thats the stats from the early 90s. Guyana has no growth since 2001-2002.

gtmassive
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 3:49 pm:
I totally agree about the National Service. The citizens of Guyana are paying for the stupidity of the government. The GNS was a deciplined unit that taught the cadets some form of trade, whether electrical or welding.

Karter 1
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 1:01 pm:
U R the only one who have hit the nail on the head.It starts in the home.Prez hopeful OBAMA spoke about this very thing on fathers day.Fathers gotto look after their flock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reply to this]
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 1:13 pm:
popeoplefedup.

I agree with you on just about everything you say here but it is never nice when you make comparison between the two major ethnic groups in Guyana. When you do that, you are actually saying that to be East Indian is better than being Black and thats just how it came across to me and to many people. Is there a Superiority Complex at work here? You can address the ills in the black community but never make comparisons and this goes for any other ethnic group you are doing and analysis on.

Just to debunk that theory slightly, I am a product of single parent and so are many of my friends - i have written about this before in response to Gap1 who carried a similar comment about the black family, and none of us have turn out to be anything close to fineman and his gang, the Phantom or Roger Khan and we are not the so call Freedom fighter either side of the isle sympathizes with.

The last time i responded to a similar comment the Moderate for this blog edited my response. Do you know why this type of comment gets to me…. when i was in High school - 17 years old, i was emotional with an East Indian girl and when her father found out he made a somewhat similar comment like yours. 18 years have past but you made it feel like if it was yesterday.

Address the issues at hand and watch the rhetoric. I was once told that once a statement can be misinterpret it will be misinterpreted.

Be careful rasta.

[Reply to this]
motherofmine
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 4:20 pm:
PEPIE
I agree you 100% .

stevemadra
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 7:43 pm:
Finally…someone that sees beyond politics and race, and can contribute something that can actually lead to a better solution rather than criticising others and continuing to add fire to the escallating racial and political tensions in guyana.

Kudos to your comment popeoplefedup

[Reply to this]
guy123
In reply to the above comment on June 20th, 2008 5:18 am:
popeoplefedup,I hear you,but you are a sympathiser of RK. I think you people should start to learn to protect yourselves join the army and police force,and stop bullying the “enemy”(GPF,army) to protect you,as soon as they don’t do their job to suit they are condemned,it is not their fault that the government does not respect them enough to equip them properly,and pay them a good salary,so they can do their job. When those boys were growing up they all wanted to join the GPF and the army,to “PROTECT AND SERVE” whether they had both parents in the home or not,but under this government they don’t know what is right or wrong anymore,and a lot of them have gone astray,all of a sudden,it is no longer good enough to serve,if you can be rich ,however you get the money,you are top,what kind of message is being sent to our young people now?

[Reply to this]
cun3boy
on June 19th, 2008 11:17 am

kudos should be given to the GPF for a job well done. its a sad thing to note that the bandits in Guyana are getting younger and younger, (14,15,16,17 year olds in crime of frightening and head spinning savagery) something must be done to arrest this trend. the government and opposition parties need to work together and stop fighting (the time for divisive politics is over), parents and non governmental organizations need to get back to old school ways of raising children (it takes a village/country). the media and those who use it as a tool to further their own agenda political and otherwise need to be more responsible. stop glorifying wrong. bandits and killers should never be heroes. if we as a people don’t come together and do what is right in the next couple of days, months, years, the age of the killers would be 10, 11,12,13.

[Reply to this]
Onverwagt1
on June 19th, 2008 12:07 pm

,I hope that the statement of this senior military person will help those responsible to work together especially during this critical time ,any intelligence gathered must be examined and executed by those who are most competent,Sad this operation suffered the lack thereof.,nevertheless some positives, keep the pressure on J.S you’ll get them.

[Reply to this]
Carl
on June 19th, 2008 12:30 pm

I’m amused by the views of some of the rum-shop psychologists and pyschiatrists who have been trying to analyze why Afro-Guyanese teenagers have joined Finenman’s gang.

I’m particularly amused by the constant reference to the absence of a father figure and lack of family support in the lives of the teenagers. Okay, for the sake of advancing this debate and making my point, I will not argue with the findings of my fellow bloggers; but I’m looking to them for some answers to some questions I have.

What is responsible for the corruption that exists among many in the government? Now, don’t play stupid, for every right-thinking Guyanese and some international institutions have acknowledged that there is a lot of corruption in our government. So why are these well-educated people so corrupt?

How could they be so heartless as to rob our nation and in the process deprive the treasury of money that can be spent on the welfare of the poor? Did these people grow up with fathers? Do they have proper family support?

And aren’t poor people likely to commit crimes for the same reasons as a well-educated bureaucrat or government minister? Don’t the poor, just as the bureaucrat or government minister, use their ill-gotten gains to buy fine clothes, jewelery, homes, etc.?

As you consider your answers, you’ll quickly realize that your conclusions about the teenagers are based on sheer stereotype. Yes, sheer stereotype.

You’ll also see how silly it is to ascribe one type of crime to the absence of a father or poor family support while completely ignoring the same considerations in the insidious crime of public corruption.

I guess that the lesson here is that the reasons for crimes cannot and should not be ascribed based on the socio-economic standing of the perpetrators. For at the end of the day, most people, whether rich or poor, commit crimes in order to satisfy an actual or perceived existential need for food, clothing, shelter, etc.

[Reply to this]
birdie92k
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 4:32 pm:
Good post, however, there is a MAJOR difference in institutional crime and what is taking place at the moment. That difference is easily visible;)

[Reply to this]
Carl
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 5:56 pm:
Birdie92k, I’m aware of the differences between white collar and street crimes. My post, though, was meant to make the point that many crimes are driven by actual or perceived existential needs, and not by the absence of fathers or lack of a supportive family structure.

popeoplefedup
In reply to the above comment on June 22nd, 2008 10:13 pm:
While not discounting the existential needs theory of yours, Carl, it must be acknowledged that children, which most of gang members so far have proven to be, are impressionable and without the presence of a strong nuclear structure, they are very likely to be trapped in various vices.

I believe both the existential and father figure theory have equal prominence and relevance in this context.

The white collar thieves are easier to court rehabilitation than a youth without a family structure and discipline.

[Reply to this]
ankoko
on June 19th, 2008 12:42 pm

Do the hunters (joint services) have recordings of these scenarios and are giving them out when they deem necessary????

[Reply to this]
Alistair
on June 19th, 2008 12:52 pm

While we must commend the security forces for their efforts, we must also keep in mind the nexus between the “Fineman” saga and the Roger Khan/ Government” debacle. They are one and the same. If the man in the street knows of this what is taking our “rocket scientist” public and private officials to not know. WE guyanese are being played… I pray the truth gets out before this”Fineman” is killed by the people who are bent on hiding the truth. Should this not happen we’ll have to await the trial of Roger Khan for the real rebels to be exposed.

[Reply to this]
GT_BANA
on June 19th, 2008 1:01 pm

Quote from the article:

“The rifle was stolen during an ambush of a team of soldiers by armed men at Buxton on January 23, 2008, where Corporal Ivor Williams was shot and killed. The police said the weapons were also used at the robbery/murder at Triumph, ECD, on December 16, 2007, where Fazal Hakim and Rajesh Singh were killed.”

If the weapons were stolen on 23Jan08 then how could it be use at the robbery/murder at Triumph, ECD, on December 16, 2007?????????

[Reply to this]
rk
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 1:51 pm:
There were two guns, One was stolen on Jan 23rd

[Reply to this]
GT_BANA
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 3:50 pm:
According to the article, both guns were use for the robbery/murder RK.

pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 2:13 pm:
I had a good laugh when i read this piece. Thanks for making mention of it. SN be careful what you report before we start thinking that you and GPF is one and the same.lol

[Reply to this]
Alli
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 2:45 pm:
sheer Bera Annancy Story. You would expect that by now they would get their story and dates in order. And they think that Guyanese buy that line and also want Guyanese to believe that they really ran all the necessary ballistic tests. Well now we know.

[Reply to this]
La vie est bonne!
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 6:40 pm:
in a village near christmas falls lived bera annancy ha ha ha

gtking48
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 3:15 pm:
Good observation GT_ BANA, It is not that both branches of the arm services nor their kremlin overlords sincerely believe that we are devoid of any pia matter between our two ears, but unfortunately, that they are very intelligent and brilliant.How pathetic!!!

[Reply to this]
Onverwagt1
on June 19th, 2008 1:09 pm

Can’t understand that one of the weapons recovered was alleged stolen from the G.D.F on Jan 23,2008 and that both weapons were used in a crime on Dec,16,2007

[Reply to this]
bvbocan
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 1:39 pm:
It could be that SN got the story wrong, it wont be the first time.

[Reply to this]
HyBriD
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 2:39 pm:
Poor reporting by Stabroek News journalists, I figure. They should have questioned.

[Reply to this]
pepie
on June 19th, 2008 1:34 pm

I read KN and i’m ashame to be a Guyanese when the only solution to these child killers (14, 15, 16, 17, 18) the govt. has at the moment is to kill them. Shame on Henry Greene and This Government. See why we need AFC. These two parties - PPP and PNC, are outdated

[Reply to this]
HyBriD
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 2:43 pm:
Stop whining. The solution is simple: throw away your flags and Guyana passport. Leave to Forces to do their jobs. You should be out in the field to know exactly what’s going on & what circumstances call for.

[Reply to this]
pepie
on June 19th, 2008 1:49 pm

Can i ask bloggers here a question, before the jail break were they any child killers? How come we have so many child killers in 6 years? Is it only in the last 6 years that black fathers weren’t around? What really happen? I’m in my mid 30s and many of my friends grow up with out any fathers but there were no child killers. This is for the Pro PPP supportes, why weren’t they any child killers in PNC time?

Some body please talk to me. I need help in understanding whats happening here.

[Reply to this]
jerry
In reply to the above comment on June 20th, 2008 11:04 am:
The child killer started to develop when the people of buston provide shelters for the crinimals and call them freedom fighters. Young boys need people(men) who they can look up to as role model. Since the people of buxton protected these crinimals they bacame the role models for these young boys.

Remember the Chesester family. They were the only ones who were prepared to exposed the criminals and almost the entire family died at the hands of the criminals.

[Reply to this]
malaika06
on June 19th, 2008 2:57 pm

I have a a few observations to make.

1. Given our current security crisis, why hasn’t a permanent task force been set-up to capture FIneman and his gang? According the above news article, the un-named army source stated the Army was not involved in the operation and were they there to provide the critical support, Fineman and his gang could have been captured at Christmas Falls.

2. Popeoplefedup - for once I agree with you. It’s a bitter, bitter pill to swallow, the absence of the father figure in most families, PARTICULARLY the black family, is almost tantamount to a biblical curse now. And it’s not confined to Guyana as you rightfully noted.

3. Carl - You are so wrong!! there is no sociological correlation between the top civil servant who steal and plunder the public purse and the poor a**s man in the street. The former does it for sheer GREED and because he/she can, the latter because he/she thinks it’s out of NECESSITY and SURVIVAL

4. Ankoko/Cochore - You are on target. I blame not only the government for not providing the economic stimulus that would create jobs and, their wanton and ignorant destruction of social safety nets, (National Service comes quickly to mind) but other civil society for turning a blind eye for too long to the downward spiral.

Last but by no means least, for the most part, we have a morally bankrupt populace and this has absolutely nothing to do with class.

The time is way past when each citizen has to take personal responsibility for each of our actions or inaction, whether that is the politician, the church leader, the businessman, the single mother, the teacher, the policeman or whomever…

[Reply to this]
Carl
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 5:27 pm:
Malaika06, you’ve missed my point in your haste to make your own. I did not set out to draw any “sociological correlation” between the crimes of corrupt bureaucrats and those of the poor. Nor did I make such a claim.

I was only responding to Popeoplefedup’s unsupported and unfounded notions that Afro-Guyanese teenagers have turned to crime because of the absence of their fathers and family support. My point remains that actual or perceived existential needs, and not the presence or absence of fathers or family support, are the immediate causes of people turning to many crimes. After all, all criminals spends their ill-gotten gains on food, clothing, shelter, liquor, women, friends, travel, jewelry, or other actual or perceived existential needs.

Your points about “GREED…” and “NECESSITY AND SURVIVAL” are well taken as they support my point that the presence or absence of fathers or family support has nothing to do with the decision to commit many crimes.

[Reply to this]
rk
on June 19th, 2008 3:44 pm

Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country - JFK

Criminals have no excuse for being criminals. One should not blame being raised an orphan, being fatherless, the government. If you are hungry it is not a sin to steal food but taking a life is a sin.

The difference between men and animals is that men has a mind that can tell them right from wrong unlike animals.

Everyone is judged on their own actions. Stop blaming society and the government for these killings.

[Reply to this]
La vie est bonne!
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 7:44 pm:
That quote does not apply when a dictatorship is at the reins.

[Reply to this]
branford
In reply to the above comment on June 21st, 2008 12:26 am:
Can RK tell what is the difference between what the criminals are doing and what the PPP Govt is doing? This is not only about getting rid of so called criminals, but allowing justice to seen as being served. Note, JUSTICE not revenge wild west style.
gap1
on June 19th, 2008 3:50 pm

Something just en right with this picture here!

First of all, unless “the senior police officer” has a degree or a doctorate in Criminology or Criminal Psychology, he should spare us his pedestrian psycho-babble! No one is interested in it or even remotely impressed with it.

Secondly, since the GPF, the GDF and the Govt lack credibility, how can we believe that Sash Sawh’s “evidence” was not planted on these men? I hope that they do not meet with an accident and die before they are allowed their day in court, where, what the govt alleges could be challenged by examination and cross examination.

And isn’t it ridiculous what the govt, with such shredded credibility, the GPF and the GDF are asking us to believe? By forever sealing the mouths of these criminals by gunning them down and not allowing them their day in court, they awake more of our suspicions and curiousity rather than allay our fears.
Who do these people think they are fooling?

[Reply to this]
bluegrass
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 7:53 pm:
you want them alive go and see if you can when they are holding an AK47.

[Reply to this]
elijah
on June 19th, 2008 4:47 pm

Know we know that all those mass murders in lusignan and bartica and other areas are not racially motivated as assumed by the government. Look who is turning up with those deadle weapons…..blacks and indians, all link to the high profile gang killings.

[Reply to this]
kmatt
on June 19th, 2008 7:43 pm

This is to the moderater.

It is clear to me that editoral bias is being illustrated when it comes to certain veiws expressed..Why is it popeoplefedup can make such an ignorant comment, and it gets posted? But when i expressed my rebutal it was edited…I think as a moderater you need to be fair and impartial..Don’t tell me SN is government owned and operated like Chornicle…PLEASE LET MY FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION BE HEARD…IF NOT THIS IS ONE READER YOU HAVE LOST. THANKS!

[Reply to this]
guyanapdp
on June 19th, 2008 7:56 pm

I recall that Roger Khan was blamed for Minister Sawh’s murder. I wish these people would make up their mind.

Perhaps Fineman is one of Roger Khans men, That will be their next story.

Guyana Peoples Democratic Party
Admin

[Reply to this]
blacka
on June 19th, 2008 9:08 pm

1st off let me say that by no means do i support the killing of innocent people…..but here are some things that i’d like to put out there…….

1…isn’t “fine man” and his gang or any other person innoncent until proven guilty in a court of law ?
2… its a known fact that the GPF operates in a manner that violates our human rights…..they shoot 1st then ask questions later
3….when the 14 year old suspect was interrogated was there a relative or some other neutral party there to collaborate what the police has been saying about his involvement ….after all the GPF has a way of making the most innocent man confess ?
4……has the GPF officially stated who is responsible for the sawh murders…because not so long ago…..it was stated that “skinny” and his gang were responsible for those killings
5……the GPF lacks the capacity to do effective crime scene investigation……thus anyone can be blamed for a crime
6……is there anyway the information in the alleged diary can be evaluated by a professional hand writing expert to verify its authenticity or was it typed out…..lol
7……it is possible for the GPF to retrieve the records from the telephone companies to verify or to establish a link between fine man and a person whose number that appears in the diary…..because as humans we make mistakes and might write or dial the wrong number

once again these are just my views and thoughts….more to come

[Reply to this]
kaikan
on June 19th, 2008 9:29 pm

Folks why don’t you all start being true Guyanese and address the real problems facing the nation. If we continue to view every action as being an Indian or an African Guyanese problem, there will never be a solution.

Many years ago, I as a “Black Man” visited India and I would never forget some of the posters which read “India is for Indians”. Later on I visited a few cities on the African continent, and in so many words I heard similar comments about Africa.

Let’s cut the crap, the ills of Guyana are affecting all regardless of race or ethnicity. When you meet Trini, a Bajan or a Yardie (Jamaican) on the streets of New York, you don’t hear them greet each other as “wah happening Indian Trini, or African Bajan etc”

Wake up folks!!! Let’s be Guyanese and find solutions for our Dear Land of Guyana.

Peace to you all.

[Reply to this]
Charriot
In reply to the above comment on June 19th, 2008 10:44 pm:
Your comments were well taken, but I think the root cause needs to be addressed.
The Indians have always held the economic base in Guyana, and ever since attaining political power the economic base is even greater.
There is no economic base for the Africans in Guyana. Burnham tried to plant the seed, but it could not germinate, now it’s rippling effect can be felt by all.

Pay attention, 80% of the economic infrastructure is owned by the Indians, 10% Chinese, 5% Afro Guyanese, and 5% others. We Africans clearly have no power.

The other problem is, many Afro Guyanese are doing well in foreign countries and do not invest a dime in the homeland. This is an area the Indians continue to be successful with.
The only way the Africans will be on a level playing field is if the successful ones invest in the further.

[Reply to this]
branford
on June 21st, 2008 12:19 am

Has the process known as arrest and investigate been removed from the police manuals in Guyana? We are happy at the fact that the law men are, as they claim, getting on top of the crime situation in the country. This is long over due. The funny side of the story, however, is that they seek every opportunity to execute these criminals instead of arresting them. The men who were last executed had gunshot wounds in their mouth etc which suggests that they were in close proximity of the lawmen. Why don’t they arrest? One would think that they would be more effective at their policing with more intelligence gathered from the arrested men instead of going on wild goose chases and blaming everybody who they name as a suspect for committing every crime. OR IS THERE REALLY SOMETHING TO HIDE? Mr. President, “strong arm” you need to get a grip of this non-sense and stop shooting yourself in the foot with all of your fancy talk. Bring people to justice not to the grave without getting anywhere. By the way! What ever happened to “mame” in an attempt to arrest? Whatever happened to “taking out the limbs” of a fleeing suspect so as to restrict movement and effect an arrest? Yuh tink it easy in dis country? I pray that God gives them (the powers that be) the same treatment for their “white collar” crimes as they are giving the “blue collar” criminals.

[Reply to this]
gap1
on June 21st, 2008 4:34 am

Bluegrass, the police should not act as judge, jury and executioner. I am pro-law enforcement but since the entire RK episode, I am suspicious of whatever the govt, the GPF and the GDF alledges and ofcourse the timing.

I won’t tell you that a man is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, and I won’t tell you either that the govt could allege at anytime that there was a shoot out and that is why some members were killed and btw, they had ak47’s on them and they used them at the shoot out. Maybe there was a shoot out, but were they ak47’s. Excuse me, but I prefer to take my time looking at the evidence.

I believe that the govt needed to move against fineman and his gang but what they “find” would be dubious, and what they allege would be dubious unless I see it tested by an impartial court. Don’t blame me. Jagdeo and his GPF and GDF has worked very hard to earn our distrust. Rejoice! He could honestly say that he has achieved that!

[Reply to this]
villagequeen
on June 28th, 2008 9:21 pm

while we are trying to find who is right etc. we need to find solutions to these problems. What does the education ministry have in place for school drop outs?
Those that pass through school etc.
When they were youngsters selling their things on the pavements there were not so much murders, and roberies.
I have been taking care of my children for the pass 16 years without their father in the home and i spent many nights crying out to God to teach me how to bring them up in the right way, devotions need to be returned to the school. And mothers need to do if your child come home from school with a pencil u did not give him start asking him questions, dont wait till he’s 8 by then it will b embedded.

[Reply to this]