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Mining camp murders… Ballistics show no link to Fineman gang -sources
Ballistic tests on the spent shells found at the scene of the slaughter of eight miners at the Lindo Creek camp show no link between weapons used by gunmen connected to the Rondell Rawlins gang, well-placed sources in the police forensic unit have disclosed.
Testing of the 7.62 spent shells mostly used to fire AK-47 and M-70 rifles began on Monday and yesterday officers within the forensic unit completed the analysis, finding no match of the shells previously retrieved from murder scenes thought to have been carried out by Rawlins’ gang.
Up to press time last night the police had not officially disclosed the findings from the ballistic tests and when contacted Crime Chief, Seelall Persaud declined to comment.
It is not clear, given the findings of the ballistics test whether the army would subject its weapons issued to ranks who were in the jungle to an examination.
Senior joint services officials have admitted that there were a number of outstanding questions to be answered, but one top official told Stabroek News yesterday that the time to answer those questions was not yet. The official mentioned that investigations were still ongoing in the area and at the end the findings would be made public.
Resemblance
Security officials believe that the manner of the miners’ killing, with some evidence of torture noticeable, bears some marks of the modus operandi of a particular criminal gang. “While I will not speculate there is some resemblance,” one official said, adding that soldiers would not beat anyone with hammers and burn their bodies.
They further stated that based on information received from reliable sources, the heinous act was committed by criminal elements they are actively pursuing.
Early Saturday morning, Arokium discovered all of his mine workers dead in a camp located south-east of the country. The men were shot and killed and then burnt. Arokium said he only discovered skulls and bones at the scene. Some relatives of the men are adamant it was the work of the security forces, while others 
Stating that he believed that the army was responsible for the attack and that it could not be Rondell Fineman Rawlins and his gang, Arokium told Stabroek News in an interview on Sunday night that the fugitive would have had to come into “enemy” territory to launch the attack. He explained that the camp could be reached by travelling strictly over land. Driving from Linden and through Ituni there was a “turn-off” 76 km before reaching the Kwakwani junction. The “turn-off” is the UNAMCO logging road which is located approximately a 30-minute walk from the main road. According to Arokium, Fineman was probably moving away from the Joint Services ranks that were scouring the area around Christmas Falls for him and his gang. 
Arokium last evening told Stabroek News that on Saturday night when the matter was first made public two government officials, Prime Minister Samuel Hinds and Home Affairs Minister Clement Rohee visited his Meten-Meer-Zorg, West Coast Demerara home in search of him but he was not there. However, he said later that night he met with the officials at his Crane Place, South Ruimveldt residence.
Further the man said if it were that the men were killed by mistake, the Joint Services should come out and say so. He insisted that the joint services were well aware of where his camp was and noted that he had been told that only days before, his son had assisted the lawmen in cleaning meat which they shared.
Arokium recounted that the young men in particular, who worked with him were youths who he had taken under his wing and given a job, adding that it was extremely saddening the way they were killed. “Those 
Asked whether he had heard any word on whether the remains would be flown to the city and handed over to relatives, Arokium said he was not aware of when this would happen since he has not been notified by anyone.
“They haven’t told me anything and the people’s families are calling me and I don’t know what to tell them because I myself ain’t hearing nothing,” he said.
It is believed that the miners were killed sometime between Sunday June 15 and Tuesday June 17.
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123 Responses to “Mining camp murders… Ballistics show no link to Fineman gang -sources”
blacka
on June 25th, 2008 6:47 amwell well well….since the test has unofficially excluded fineman and his gang who does it point to….its either the joint service…….a phantom gang…….or the members of the brazilian camp 4 mile away who saw this as a crime of opportunity…..its just speculation but who knows it may bear some truth to it
ms guyana
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 2:18 pm:well we all speculating now
but this whole thing is getting more bizarre by the day
BOEING777
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 7:49 pm:well, well, who believed that it was linked to so called “fineman”… the illusions and spinning by this regime never ends. now it’s coming out plain as daylight. there are obviously more criminal gangs in Guyana than this regime would like to admit to. Every crime they loved to say it’s linked to so called “fineman” Give the masses some credit. The people know fully well that many criminal elements are on the loose. However, this regime would like nothing better than to tell the people it’s only this so called “fineman” gang was involved. Get real.
blacka
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 9:00 pm:here are somethings for u to think about
1. if fineman and his gang killed these guys b4 goin to christmas falls….can any of the articles found there be from the now deceased men…such as the solar system and such…..can mr Arokium or any of the relatives identify any of the items
2. there was a licensed firearm with the men….so is it possible for GPF to stumble upon these men…..sees a firearm and open fire…only to realise they have the wrong guys…please remember it was the police who 1st initiated the search then the GDF was called in…so the GDF had knowledge of the camps location when they shared the beef but not the police
3. the brazilian camp thats a few miles away needs to be investigated……maybe they went about robbing these men as a crime of opportunity since they probably knew the joint forces was hot in persuit of fineman
4. it was recently mentioned that fineman and his gang stayed at a camp with a man in their bid to escape but didnt kill him….thats rather strange since they are allegedly leaving no witnesses…..and also the passengers in the bus why not kill them too
5. its my belief that maybe there is another group thats in hot pursuit of fineman and his gang reason being is that on the 2 sighting of the gunmen…..1 was a group of men with dread locks and the second was men in army gear…..the 3 suspects killed who civilian clothing..so who are the men in the army clothes and they also wore bullet proof vests
6. is there an accountability report for the bullets used by the joint forces whenever they go out on a mission and return ? if so maybe that would shed some light on matters arising and just maybe we will get somewhere
7. what is the motive for the mr Arokium to be lying or rather accusing the joint forces of such a crime ?
inconclusion there are more questions than answers here what ever evidence that was at lindo creek has been destroyed by the fire….we all know any findings done by the professionals will lead in 1 direction so dont look for much with that …lets just pray that who ever the guilty party is be caught and is placed before the courts….
let me also offer my condolences to the families of the deceased…may god give u the strenght and courage in the days…weeks and months ahead
COSMIKE
on June 25th, 2008 6:52 amMY GOODNESS! WHO CAN WE REALLY TRUST NOW? THIS IS THE VERY REASON WHY THE COUNTRY BECAME LAWLESS IN THE FIRST PLACE, LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL WHO SOMEHOW THINK THEY’RE ABOVE THE LAW. LET US SEE WHAT NANCY STORY THEY HAVE FOR US THE UPSTANDING PEOPLE ESPECIALLY THE FAMILY OF THE MINERS THAT PERISHED IN SUCH AN UNSPEAKABLE MANNER BECAUSE GIVEN ALL I HAVE READ SO FAR , “IT SEEMS THAT A CHOSEN FEW OF THE JOINT SERVICES PERSONNEL HAVE LET GREED GET THE BEST OF THEM AND THOUGHT THAT THEY CAN SOMEHOW GET AWAY WITH IT!”,
Ricky
on June 25th, 2008 6:56 amWHO DID IT? If not FINEMAN, not the JS, then WHO? Could they have turned on each other? NAAH. Somebody needs to come forward and speak so the families can find some sort of closure.
amen-ra
on June 25th, 2008 7:02 amNow that the balistics test have been concluded and the evidence shows it was not fineman and his gang, so it must have been done by another gang or persons who may have robbed the campers and knowing that fineman is wanted would be blamed. So i hope the joint forces focus their attention in another direction, i would like to see fine man and his gang caught and bring to justice and punished to the full extent of the law
Alicia
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 8:38 am:Clutching at straws my friend? Another gang? Guyana must be the wild wild west.
AFINAM
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 8:42 am:It does not disqualify Fineman and his gang as they could have used different guns.
But it does not implicate him either as the modus operadi is different.
Killing someone with a gun is different from killing someone with a sledge hammer.
In any event we can polygraph the Joint Services personels in the area.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 11:50 am:It certainly doesn’t disqualify him but it surely move the focus away from him somewhat and it now open the eyes of many to the fact that they are others in our mist that are committing high profile crime. This crime wave is much much bigger than we think .
COSMIKE
on June 25th, 2008 7:09 amWHAT WAS THAT? BALLISTICS TESTS ON THE 7.62 SHELLS FOUND AT THE CRIME SCENE DID’NT NOT MATCH ANY PREVIOUSLY FOUND AT CRIME SCENES LINKED TO FINEMAN, WOW! I WONDER WHO DID IT? COULD IT BE ALIENS USING M70 AND AK47 NOW? DID ANYONE SEE UFO’S IN THE AREA?
GET REAL PEOPLE, WAKE UP GUYANA, WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP AND SEE WHAT’S HAPPENING TO OUR BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY AND TELL ME WHO CAN WE REALLY TRUST NOW?
springs
on June 25th, 2008 7:30 amI have made my position very clear yesterday when I said that the firearms expert (s) will be objective and its appears that they were very objective. The findings have shed new light on the investigation because it appears from the firearms experts that the shells did not match guns recovered from Fineman gang.
Do not be too quick to accused the Joint Servicesat this time because Fineman is still on the run and no examination has been done on their firearms which. It is a distinct possibility that the guns they have in their possesion could have been used to killed the eight miners.
I am awaiting the examination of the Joint Service firearms and I hoping that the records are properly kept to show who officer was issued which gun with the serial number properly recorded, the date issue, time return and the amount of shots issueand the amount of shots returned after the end of his or her duty. If this is done correctly then we are moving in the right direction were the Joint Service is concern.
If all the weapons issued are examined and the results show that the guns did not fire the shots, we have a very serious problem on our hands.
nickiegyrl
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 10:39 am:Like u said it’s a very serious problem, now is the chance for the law makers to prove to the people the they r there to serve and protect them and on that note if doing the right thing means cleaning out their closets then clean out their colset is what they must do , im not quick to point any fingers but people r doing the math and 1&1 = 2 , so i pray the that the right thing is done i feel Guyana has bleed enough .
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:01 pm:Springs…
I think its time police start investigating crime the real way and stop the assumptions. Thats the only way they are going to regain the trust they lost especially in the black communities and i know they can do it. However, fineman is a criminal and he should be captured and brought before the court to answer for his crimes. Also equal attention should be pay to finding the those that slaughter those miners as is being paid to fineman and his gang.
We’re on the right path so far…let get these people.
bvbocan
on June 25th, 2008 7:58 amOh No! This cannot be true! Fineman was not responsible for this incident?
[sarcasm]
stone80
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 8:24 am:it seems like you are in contact with fineman to know he didn’t do it!!!!! you seem pretty confident,eh.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:07 pm:we all know how you feel about fineman and his gang and we feel the same but come on now you can’t blame him for the death of Christ that was over 2000 years ago. Forget the sarcasm and lets solved some crime but putting pressure on the people who we task to do this job.
Galton
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 8:27 am:maybe they tested the wrong samples
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:08 pm:funny….
bluegrass
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 9:01 am:sarcasm, this is not true, how can we believe the test, these men cannot be trained in a few weeks to perform ballistics test. lol
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:09 pm:you having fun….glad to see you happy but the job is not over yet. All those response for crime must be brought to justice.
Karter 1
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 4:30 pm:U really sound like a Fineman Supporter instead of the Police & Army.Do u think they smashed in these guys head ,shot them then burnt their bodies to hide the crime?.Well if so Guyana is indeed lost either way.Do u believe anything the US government tells u ??????Why not wait on the facts before u support the criminals.
Galton
on June 25th, 2008 8:26 amWell now this new development poses more questions than answers.
Maybe this area was a refuge for many illegal operators, at least that is what the authorities would have us believe, and in their haste the security forces missed them completely.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:12 pm:Well come to think about it how far was the illegal airstrip from this area. The one that was bigger that Timehri. Isn’t this a joke. An illegal Airstrip bigger that our international Airport. This Govt need to wake up.
Alicia
on June 25th, 2008 8:40 amGreat job Stabroek news. I can tell you are on this story like white on rice. If you had not gotten someone to leak this information then who knows what cooked up story we would have gotten. Keep going after these sources. The whole story must be exposed.
cat
on June 25th, 2008 8:49 amwhere is RK he normally leave his comments early.lol so what u got to say now buddy?
rk
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 11:43 am:I am shocked actually - whoever killed these miners must be punished.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:14 pm:I rk, i’m beginning to like you. You wan real stand up fella, you know when to conceed. Like i was saying, there MAYBE another gang/group/squad. Think about it and i have a theory.
kmatt
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:15 pm:Rk you need to wake up and smell the fresh coffee.
TO ALL THOSE BLOGGERS. WAS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT FINEMAN WAS EVERY IN THE AREA? CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER MY ? WHY IS IT YOU BLOGGERS KEEP ON MENTIONING FINEMAN..I THOUGHT YOU GUYS WERE SUPPOSE TO BE OBJECTIVE..IT SEEMS TO ME, THE GOVERNMENT HAS GOTTEN YOU GUYS FOOLED. fineman this fineman that…as wanna be detectives.you are suppose the read with an open mind. eventhough evidence does not point to fineman and his gang..some people are still in denial. Hinds and Rohee, fineman!!!!!!!!!!!!! they just make me sick..
rk
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 1:15 pm:KMATT - I would to get into politics and parties as most politicians are dirty.
GT_BANA
on June 25th, 2008 8:57 amSo Fineman and his gang weapons were not used in this attack. Lets run the ballistic test on the Joint Forces and Army weapons of all personnel that conducted the search in that area and see if in fact the murders were commited by them. If its determined that the Joint Forces and Army personnel weapons do not match, then they may another group (military or criminal) similar to the phantom squad.
GTguru
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 11:32 am:I don’t think the government is prepared to face that, so I’m not sure the will produce the weapons to match the spent shells. Hence, they’ll have to be someone one who is feeling guilty and decides to leak the information as to what really happened.
sagga Grand K-Man
on June 25th, 2008 8:58 amThen there should be an independent ballistic test done to clear the joint services weapons,this should be done by an international agency. Also why would the PM and a Minister visit the home of the Dredge owner and try to persuade him that this crime was committed by any individual that was very unprofessional on the part of both men if that is true. I guess that if it was a mistake made by the joint services they should fess up….at the end of the day they will all be free people, since justice in Guyana is really blind,instead of asking the international community for helicopters the Goverment if serious should look at importing a Police Commissioner from the UK like was done in Jamaica and other Caribbean nations,but I guess that wont be in the Governments best interest since their motto is He who pays the piper calls the tune!!
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:33 pm:The visit by the PM and the Minister is what scaring me right now. Why would a Prime Minister visit this man’s home after this incident and trying to convince him that it was fineman before an investigation was even started. How many other persons have they done this too? A Prime Minister doing investigation work? I bet this was known to High Ranking people long before Mr. Arokium become aware of it.
popeoplefedup
on June 25th, 2008 9:18 amIs there anyone ludicrous as me to believe that perhaps, just perhaps, there are people sinister enough to slay these men in order to thwart the apparently cogent operations in disintegrating a criminal enterprise?
Isn’t it possible, even remotely, for a group of iniquitous people, armed with hammers to kill these men, then manipulate the crime scene by deliberately leaving spent shells, so that the Fineman pursuit is staggered, or that even the beast will be exculpated?
Isn’t any of this possible in a land where criminal possibilities and pure evil are unbridled?
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 12:42 pm:Popeoplefedup..
Today you will walk a fine line. Why is it always have to be fineman and his gang? Isn’t there any other theory that you can come up with. what about another death sqaud, Real Mercenaries higher by powerful people, A new RK on the sence? Is any of this possible. What about an army within an army? Listen i have a few theories but the editor won’t allow me to state them but please lets just think beyound fine and his gang for a while and see what else is out there. Its time we re-read the reports for the past month to see if we missed anything.
popeoplefedup
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 2:14 pm:If that were the case, of an army within an army or a higher mercenary group (I suppose mercenary here is defined as having social and/or political privileges), then what could have been that group’s rationale (provided it exists) for slaughtering these men, and in such a depraved manner as that?
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 5:40 pm:Great question.
It is clear, like the population that the Guyana Government has given up on the Joint Services a long time now, with respect to hunting down and killing/bring the Criminals to justice. This is evident with the way Ronald Gajraj and others organised themselves to fight crime outside the boundaries of the law by recruiting evil to deal with evil. The end result was organised gangs (paid by rich and supported by the Influential people in Guyana) and chaos within the society.
It is my belief that after the Gajraj scandal the Govt. decided that it was not worth it to travel down this road but after the Lusignan and Bartica massacres, especially the Lusignan massacre, they once again in their minds had no way to turn and foolishly travel that road again by having evil do the work of the JS.
I believe that there is gang/group/squad that is being paid to hunt fineman and his gang. Whether these are professional killers, hired hand - motivated by the idea that a section of the populace is being targeted by these criminals or to provide answer to their supporters by ANY means necessary that they have an handle on the security situation(politics). One way or the other there is a group out there and when that group came upon Mr. Arokium men, not completely knowing who they are looking for other than a gang(group of men), open fire instantly killing a few. Those that were injure were then tortured as to the where abouts of fineman and his gang. They were indeed as MackyDog put it Collateral Damage but not from his perspective. Yes Macky there is a war.
I still am adamant as to whether the JS did it for many reasons, which was put forward by countless bloggers who weigh in on this tragic incident but i have not count them out yet. Neither have i count out fineman but to me it all points to an independent group of outside the two mentioned.
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 10:11 pm:pepie,
The term “collateral damage” that I used is only to be understood IF and only IF the joint services are the ones who did it. I do not think the JS did it, the term is hypothetical.
Guyanese4life
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 3:47 pm:What we will notice happening is not strange……it probably is better to blame the so called Fineman gang for this as well (this is not sarcastic).
I have read and followed and the more I follow the more I get concerned for the status of our dear country.
I don’t trust any of the people in power peddling from the opposition leader, to the president and his cabinet to the AFC leaders to Hamilton Green and all the military and security forces.
“Evil begot evil”
Fineman has been made to be the only monster responsible for killing, crime will not be solved with this thinking. If it is not Fineman it is someone trying to silence Fineman. Fineman has gotten what he wanted to be Infamous.
Now I wonder when the crime continues after Fineman is caught and killed, who will you look to blame, Fatman?
We look at people being burnt after or before killed and find it to be some type of killing that only represents Fineman’s gang. What about so many men that have been cut to pieces and buried and many other cruel deaths…they are not psycotic they are heroes. All that the burning signified was the coverup of evidence, death and smell of the dead, nothing more, nothing less.
This Hammer issue has been taken out of context…it has been reported that it is one Hammer and one skull that looks like being hit with it. Anyone could have easily planted that hammer and broken a skull. Tampering with evidence has been done before in Guyana, all the Caribbean and in North America. From the facts I don’t believe Fineman did it, but who knows…somebody did it and thats the bottom line.
bluegrass
on June 25th, 2008 9:23 amone thing for sure the A. F. is not covering up any thing, as some had suggested.
the truth will reveal, the two persons that made the called to the owner must be located and questioned, they know a lot more.
bgsbny
on June 25th, 2008 9:26 am…….surreptitious subterfuge,,,, the maladjusted thing that is,, as they say “master
minded” the terror now at high octane levels in GY,, he knows that the police and the army are engaged in forensics,, so his manoeuvres,, are so meticulously
displayed with the element of confusion as the modus ,,to allow him time to regroup and then come with much lethal and robust force the next time ,, possibly on “regent st” but i hardly think regent st is where he will hit ,, it’s simple ,, call in regent st ,, so the forces will concentrate on that area ,, while he targets some place else ,, that will be with out any security ,, the water ways of Gy is definitely a means of transportation that needs to be monitored,, it is simple to see that those who created this monster can not,, now,, control it ,, the murders/ execution,, mafia style,, at de waterfalls papah have a mole for the celebrated
( by the pnc ) freedom fighters,, or he/she is being manipulated out of fear ,, the connection of the killings of the 5 from the papers should not be lost on anyone with a modicum of common sense ,, the levels to which crime in GY has escalated is soley and primarily connected to the cocaine that is coming into GY through the porous borders ,, and in many cases aided by the amerindians ,, those whose hands are in the cocaine trade in GY ,, will,, and have paid,, with their lives when they step out of line ,, the recent such horror ,, was the “head ” floating in a canal ,, all of the “dots” can be connected ,, as a matter of fact it is so simple even the blind can see the dots…… it’s the nature of the beast !
AFINAM
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 11:25 am:THE USA does not have DEA personels in Guyana so how did they create a report on the drugs situation in Guyana?
From the Local police force?
You mean the same police force and CANU that was willing to place drugs pon she?
Alicia
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 3:34 pm:The report is done each year by personnel from the US embassy. They are suppose to do interviews with all stakeholders and compile that report.
AFINAM
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 7:15 am:UNLESS the drugs dealers are contributing to the USA Report I do not see how anyone can say that the drugs situation in Guyana is critical.
You need real DEA personels contributing to the report. Who is actually contributing to the drugs report in Guyana?
justice4allguyana
on June 25th, 2008 9:46 amThe puzzle pieces are falling into place slowly but surely. For once the test proves that Fineman gang was not responsible for the murders.
Now test have to be done on the weapons the JS is using and the finding have to be revealed whether in their favor or not.
Karter 1
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 4:34 pm:I guess u must be jubilant now .It’s not Fineman!!!!!! HOORAY
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 10:01 pm:not because the bullets didn’t match fineman’s guns it means he didn’t bludgeon the miners to death…sledge hammers and chainsaws don’t fire bullets…
Qyute
on June 25th, 2008 10:02 amDuh!
HyBriD
on June 25th, 2008 10:16 amWhy would the soldiers need to burn the bodies after robbing & killing the men? Surely they could not think of it as a way to “cover up” the evidence.
How many skulls were found? Maybe evil got the best of one or two of the men and they decided to turn against the rest and decided to burn the bodies so that their identities would forever be lost while the culprit (who is thought to be one of those burnt) lives free with his booty and new identification cards, passports etc.. Or, it could be the Brazilians who are just 4 miles away? But then again, the Forces are quite mum on the issue, not reassuring at all.
BADLALL
on June 25th, 2008 10:26 amMr arokium has stated his case clearly and provided a good account of what may have happened. As he said he is not a little boy. These govt officials should follow up and investigate his assertions .Blaming fineman for every murder in Guyana seems to be the norm. These miners were killed because they knew the identify their killers.
Ricky
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 3:58 pm:Since some of the Miners were shot, which could have been a case of mistaken identity the others may have confronted the killers and truly, have observed their identity and so they were slaughtered. There must have been a number of men who attacked the camp that no one escaped upon hearing the blasting sound of the guns.
Or, were they druged before they wer hammered? At least one of the killers needs to come forward make a compromise with the authorities and tell us the whole story.
We need to clear the scenes from Guyana’s Landscape very quickly. WHERE IS THE GOVERNMENT? WHERE IS THE GOVERNMENT? Guyanese should demand a change government. It may not change the situation immediately but it will demand results from our Political Directorate.
COSMIKE
on June 25th, 2008 10:36 amONE THING THAT WE ALL SHOULD KEEP IN MIND IS THAT THE ARMED FORCES CLAIM THAT THAT’S NOT THE WAY THEY CONDUCT BUSINESS “KILLING PEOPLE WITH HAMMERS AND BURNING THEIR BODIES”,
STICK A PIN FOR A MINUTE, THEY WOULD BE BETTER OFF SAYING THAT “THE REAL LAWMEN WITH INTEGRITY WON’T COMMIT SUCH UNSPEAKABLE ACTS , WE’VE SEEN UP TO RECENTLY CASES OF MEMBERS OF BOTH THE POLICE AND SOLDIERS THAT HAVE INDULGE IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES SO PLEASE DON’T LET THE TOP BRASS OF ANY OF THESE SERVICES TRY TO SPEAK FOR ALL THEIR TROOPS, THEY SIMPLY CAN’T DO THAT BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF US GUYANESE WON’T BUY SUCH B.S. THEY HAVE TO COME BETTER THAN THAT, ” SEH BOUT DEM HAVE DE PLACE SURROUNDED AND IS JUST A MATTER OF TIME TILL DEH CATCH FINEMAN AND HE GANG, BUT YET DEH DID’NT SEE A BIG FIRE AND TRUST ME IT HAD TO BE BIG GIVEN IT WAS MEANT TO CREMATE THE MINERS BODIES AND WAS FUELED BY MATRESSES PILLOWS SHEETS , DID SOMEONE SAY EVEN CHAIN SAW? WOW THEN HOW IN GODS EARTH GUYANA’S FINEST (ELITE) DID’NT NOTICED OR EVEN HEARD ANYTHING, VERY VERY VIGILANT HUH!
WELL DEH BETTER NOT DO ANYTHING TO MR AROKIUM BECAUSE HE SHED SOME VERY INTERESTING LIGHT ON THE WHOLE SUITUATION WHICH SURELY DID’NT BENEFIT THOSE GREEDY OPPORTUNISTS WHO ABUSED THEIR AUTHORITY ONCE MORE, WOE BE ONTO YOU AND YOUR PEERS.
LOOK HOW MANY FAMILY YOU’VE PLUNGED INTO SADNESS,EVEN ME WHO DON’T KNOW ANY OF THESE MEN BUT I PASS THAT AREA ONCE WHEN MY FATHER TOOK ME UP THE RIVER ON THE TUG BOAT THAT HE WAS THE CHEF ON TO SEE WHAT HIS JOB ENTAILS, SO I HAVE A VERY GOOD IDEA HOW THE PLACE IS GEOGRAPHICLY. SAD INDEED VERY VERY SAD!
Alli
on June 25th, 2008 10:52 amso who done it? If its not Fineman who will the Police try to pin the killings on?
kayb
on June 25th, 2008 12:06 pmBadlall, you have a point there about identity. Mr Arokium is firm in his belief that the JS are responsible for the crime, but he has to be careful. Are you guys aware that security officers have attempted to send vehicles to pick him up? This is suspicious especially since the crime chief is not commenting on the findings of the ballistic tests and the family have not been notified on the location of the remains. In addition, there is a witness who is fearful of coming forward, and only wants to talk to an international body. At least, one thing is clear and that it’s not Fineman.
Maybe, we need to send John Walsh to Guyana.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 1:14 pm:Not this is news…this seems to be getting better but is going to get worst first. Here goes the GPF again. What is wrong in Guyana…..nothing can’t tell me Politics isn’t at play here
BADLALL
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 1:33 pm:I know that whatever happens Mr Arokium will never budge from his position, he will not surrender to the nonsense that is being put out by those govt officials. He will stand before them and say the same thing over and over again. Ask yourself who tortured people recently ???? The findings are now with the Defence Board and then there is silence on that report. Why is Sam Hinds trotted out everytime there is bad news , can he not see what this will do to his legacy.
rk
on June 25th, 2008 12:10 pmThis evidence [provided it's accurate] now points the finger at the joint service but still does not clear the FineMan gang as they have multiple weapons.
The GS and GPF would now need to prove that the spent shells aren’t theirs. We will have to hear from them before jumping to conclusions. How that will be accomplished, I don’t know as they have hundreds of weapons themselves.
Now this is what is on my mind, The massacres at Lusignan and Bartica was carried out by at least a dozen men. Only six of these were at Christmas Falls, the 14 year old admitted that FineMan wasn’t at the camp although the GPF said otherwise. Maybe they were two groups. Whatever the case someone tortured and killed these miners the question is WHY????? Greed - yes - accidental - possible - Revenge - who knows.
We know this, FineMan and his gang are evil.
Anyone here that defends them should be ashamed as this is the mentality that creates this environment in the first place.
There are similar persons in the JS. This was the reason why the gang eluded capture for years and why the JS was not included in the original operation.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 1:32 pm:Tell me RK who is defending fineman….you find one blogger that has defended fineman, one blogger who doesn’t agree that he is a criminal and show us here.
Come now, well all know what this fineman brings, he himself according to KN claim to have committed the Lusignan Massacres. In Guyana everyone know fineman and his gang are killers but that doesn’t means all the crime in the country was committed by him. Hence proper police work is required to bring the perpretrators of all these crimes committed to justice. Or else, until fineman is kill all the crime is going to be blame on him.
guy123
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 1:44 pm:When will people stop focusing so much on Fineman,we don’t even know if he exists,we have to pretend there is no Fineman,and then we will get somewhere,the reason this case is so baffleing is because we only have two suspects,the JS or fineman,if we rule both out we are left with nothing,I believe there are some evil men out there carrying out these crimes,and I refuse to accept that any one man is responsible for everything that is happening,we have allowed ourselves to believe that everytime something bad happens in Guyana,one person(gang) is responsable,because(whoever) said so,that is such backward thinking,we have open borders all around us,it might not even be Guyanese commiting these crimes,the GPF has to widen their search,start looking in different places,it is time for some real police work,keep politics out,ministers do their jobs and let the police do their jobs.
rk
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 2:25 pm:Guy123 Question?? Wasn’t Ottis Fifee, Durant, Chung Boy, the 14 year old etc etc all part of the FineMan Gang from Buxton - now why would you suggest we forget about FineMan as if he doesn’t exist. He does exist.
Pepie you show me where any of these bloggers blame all of the crimes on FineMan. I am not blaming him for all of the crimes however he is to be blamed for at least 2 of the Massacres which included kids and police officers. I am blaming him on at least two of the recent Massacres - do you refute that?
If you have a dog that sucks egg and you caught him twice sucking eggs and one day you wake up and is missing eggs in your backyard farm are you going to go blame you cat???
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 12:40 am:RK i know it is late but i have to respond to you……
we all heard that saying as a child but guess what, you are not thinking in a Non-linear fashion as it relates to that saying. Lets suppose it was your neighbour’s dog who took the egg, now you hang your dog then later finds out that your dog wasn’t the one who took the egg on this occasion, what would you do? how would you feel? Don’t you think by investigating you would have stand a better chance of finding the culprit rather than assuming it was you dog. God forbid if you own a dog.
Thats just what is needed here INVESTIGATION.
Fulleyes
on June 25th, 2008 12:14 pmI have a scenario. The lawmen, JS knew the men were there and that they had stuff (diamonds, gold) with them since the owner said they had washed a few days earlier, and also the had helped the JS clean meat. This is a robbery gone bad, the lawmen are always looking for ways to subsidize the menial pay (robbing, tekking bribe) So the robbed the miners killed them and burnt them so that it would look like such a vicious attack, we will have no other choice that to blame fineman. The problem is the overdid it shouldn’t have burnt and wrapped them in the tarpaulin. How would the bandits have had that much time on their hands.
Just a thought…..I may be wrong but I’m just saying…..
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 1:33 pm:gaw long full eye….carrying ya fire
borntwice
on June 25th, 2008 12:25 pmThe sad thing about this whole affair is that no one would be held responsible or accountable. For the family I say tie you belly and keep plugging away do not waste your time.
gtagricola
on June 25th, 2008 12:26 pmI would not make an assumption but there is only one man who knows best and that is God. Person(s) who commit this crime have their conscience(s) to live with. My sympathy goes out to all of da family.
stone80
on June 25th, 2008 12:49 pmGOD must have planned this.It was written and said as per the christian doctorine that everything happens for a reason(how can god explain this).the blame game continues ……….if not fineman nor the JS then who?we will never know the truth.This is guyana we talking about.
Skeptic
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 3:58 pm:God planned it ! hmmmm, that sounds like a sick thing to say about god. That sounds like something a human being would say, or more rightly “do” as these human beings did.
No, this god, or “idea of god” was sleeping on the job as always. So was jesus muhammad , garibel and all these other mythological characters we like to blame and call upon. Call me “skeptical” but it seems to me, that we are the ones who cause each other so much pain, just look at slavery. [Leviticus 25:44-46] We are the only ones who can save ourselves. We can only hope that these people are caught
popeoplefedup
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 11:07 pm:Jesus and Muhammad “mythological characters” you say?
You surely cannot be this skeptical.
Finally, how can God be held responsible for evil, when evil is the product of volition? How can He control our free will in granting same? That would amount to a contradiction, wouldn;t it?
As Kreeft notes, sceptics discount God not because of the absence of adequate logic, but a soft head and hard heart.
It surely must be a scary thought that in death, you forever cease to exist. Do you really romanticize the idea of lying on your bed, dying gradually with loved ones around, feeling the chills of expiration, and then cease, not even with a little consciousness?
We do cause each other suffering, by choice or free will, so how should God be held responsible?
Davo
on June 25th, 2008 12:55 pmThis Moderator likes to delete my contributions, but I will persist at least he/she will have benefit of reading them. I am a worried person, having family of all races in Guyana, and presently living in a country demographically similar to ours, but without this cancer called racialism.
Yesterday I promised to pack my bags and return home permanently if the results from the ballistic tests were not the norm. Well I start packing, but did not buy my ticket yet. I will do so if/when the following occurs:
Dr. Singh and his professional team of investigators first:
1.Revisit the evidence from the Bartica and Lusignan massacres. And publish their findings.
2. Verify who called in after the Lusignan massacre taking responsibility as Fineman. They can now check same at GT&T and against the number of telephone SIMS they collected from the Gang.
3. The malicious person who text the good ministers through the Kaieteur News server.
4. Conduct handwriting and fingerprint test on the “Diary” and at their hideout. Once proven as Rawlings et al, investigate and prosecute all within.
This will assist the authorities in identifying all the brutal gangs out there, their supporters, main players and bring them to justice.
malaika06
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 4:46 pm:Then it means you will NEVER buy that ticket and come back home
raulcedras
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 5:03 pm:Davo
Those are some good points you made, but to me it is like if we living in a dream world. It will never happen because some people have political motivations only. The masses there is no care for. It hurts me to see how Guyana has gotten. We as the people need to take our country back. This was something I knew all along there are more than one gang at work. I can vividly remember a retired army officer metioning this immediately after the Bartica killings. As a people we need to stop being politically correct & deal with the issues. We have to eliminate that cancer from our society. If we do not it will feast on the souls of our children & children’s children. We have to start demand from our leaders respect as a people & accept nothing less but good leadership.
guy123
on June 25th, 2008 1:13 pmI do not understand why the president,or anyone in the government has not gone and shown their sympathy to the families of these men,what is different in this case from the previous massacres,why is it that certain lives in Guyana seem to have more value than others,why is it that when things happen to certain people there is silence,as though it never happened,why are,nt people making a lot of noise and giving the JS hell the way some did after a similar incident,I will tell you why,because they do not expect justice,they have accepted that there is nothing they can do in this hopeless situation they are in in Guyana.
My sympathy to the families who have lost their loved ones,and to Guyana,let us hope that one day soon “betterment” will come.
ishmael
on June 25th, 2008 1:17 pmEveryone has an opinion, but what I have not read is how the Government of Guyana have failed to protect its citizen, I know first hand how ruthless the Guyana joint services can be. Many members of the JTS did not even finish High School, because jobs are so hard to find, most of the young men feel that they cannot do much with their life, so the join the Forces, get trained, and are send out onto the streets, hopefully to protect citizens. There is a saying in Guyana and I cote. “If you give a donkey a mouth organ to blow, the donkey will eat it.”
As long as the Government of Guyana can LIE to it CITIZENS, and get away with it they will, their main job in the country is to stay in power, and they do not care what they have to do to its citizens, just as long as they get to remain in power.
Mr. Sharma has been speaking against this Government for years. Look what happen to his TV Station, where is the freedom? There is none in Guyana.
I have lived, played and went to school with Mr. Young and Mr. Arokium (Whitie) and their lost have really touch me in the bottom of my heart. I prayed that the love ones that are left behind can find the energy to deal with their loses.
To the rest of the families who have lost their family please accept my deepest Sympathy, and please do not give up the fight of finding out who really killed these men.
gtbeat
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 10:09 pm:What does the Govt. have to with this? did they pull the trigger ? stop polticising these unfortunate events, when the President gets involved you say he is micro-managing, people have to be trusted to discharge their duties with honor and respect for all parties involved.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 12:49 am:Do you think they discharge they duty in the manner you prescribe?
AFINAM
on June 25th, 2008 1:58 pmThe PRESIDENT is abroad.
The “investigators” can only rely on the word of the Joint Services and Police Force when they gave evidence.
I would be suspicious of SHELLS being left by the Joint Services IF they tried a “cover-up” as they know about ballistics tests from other crime scenes.
With the FIRE, the evidence that the bullets came from those shells on the ground would be destroyed as the markings on the bullets were destroyed by the fire.
Skeptic
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 3:35 pm:How ballistics works?
There are 2 major ways to do this. When a bullet leaves a gun it is normally scraped by the barrel of the gun leaving more or less unique marks on the bullet. If you stumble upon several crime scenes and happen to recover “bullets” or fragments of “bullets” you can then match them up and conclude “yes” they were fired from the same gun.
If you don’t have the actually “bullets” then you must rely on the shells. Which are less conclusive because the striations or marks on the shell are not necessarily specific to that particular gun. From what I’ve been reading they didn’t say if they recovered “actual bullet” all I’m seeing here is talk “shells” In fact, most cases I read, all they talk about is shells (or casings)
I hope these people know what they’re doing, for everyone’s sake.
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 9:49 pm:skeptic,
the reports are about “shells” because the bodies were found in the form of ashes and you can’t tell if bullets passed thru ash. Also, Fineman happened to leave his weapons behind when he ran from his camp at Christmas River so the only gun he may have is the one(s) he will seize at the miners camp. These shells were definitely planted because there was no gun at the site to fire the bullets for the shells found.
Imausar
on June 25th, 2008 2:03 pmIn today’s article; the police stated that they’re looking or after another group; could it be theirs et al? The owner stated that he had a discussion with two ministers recently who from all account, actually force him to believe that Fineman group did the killing. My question is why they went to that extent?
I believe there is another group or more out there, be it service personal or others who carried out this act. If it was robbery, why beat the men with a hammer? This sounds like torture to me, to extract some sort of information before killing the men; some very good comments were made on this blog that need to be looked into.
The joint services must look at the whole picture when conducting their investigations. A point to note; service personnel always have extra ammo on their position, which isn’t recorded for; the possibility also excess, 7.62X39 ammo could come through the border — south, east or northwest — undocumented and sell on the black market to the various splinter groups running around in the country to protect their interest. Therefore, this is a real mess all due to Fear, Hate, greed, lust etc.
Just a question to ponder on, could the two bodies at Goat Farm carry or flown 90 miles away from the camp site? My reason is both incident appears to occur between June 15 and 18th. Just thinking.
Hotep
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 12:58 am:Then this would mean that Mr. Arokium and his men were harbouring criminals at their place of work. I know you are just thinking but be careful, this is not a good time to make Mr. Arokium into a bandit. Some already try to make him into a lair. I just watching ya back rasta.
Voice-Max
on June 25th, 2008 2:13 pmThe entire story is “unofficial”.
Alicia
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 3:36 pm:If SN had waited on the ‘official version’ let me assure you we would not have all the facts. SN is a creditable news source and if they say they spoke to someone who is in the know and provided this information, I am inclined to believe them. The fact that they broke this story makes it immpossible for the officials to come out and lie unless they are willing to challenege that they know to be the truth.
maryjane
on June 25th, 2008 2:38 pmI want to thank everyone who sent their condolences to the family of the Arokium’s. I happen to be Dax’s eldest sister, and niece of Cedric Arokium. Never would I have expected to see my family become popular under this kind of circumstance. We’re all in this fight togher, because it could have happened to any one of us and our families. Guyana has gone to the dogs… thanks again for your emotional support. My dad (Leonard) I cannot begin to imagine what he is going through, and the burden he has to carry for the rest of his life. Dax was his favorite son. who knows Dax, will tell you all about him, one of the better people on this earth…
rk
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 3:55 pm:Absolutely, Dax was one of the good guys..funny, down to earth, smart.
Condolences to you and your family.
maryjane
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 6:15 pm:thank you very much.
Alli
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 5:12 pm:are you his friend or sister? either way my condolences
maryjane
on June 25th, 2008 2:27 pm Yet , another sign of an irresponsible police force and Joint services. Everyday is some form of killing, rape, torture and yet not a crime is being solved. Now, my dear friend Dax is dead. I hope this is not another unsloved crime.
I am beginning to think that the govt needs int’l help with solving these crimes.come ppl come on u guys need to do better.
Guy99
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 8:57 pm:My heart goes out to you and your family, Please stay strong.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 1:00 am:my condolences
AFINAM
on June 25th, 2008 2:47 pmAN OVERSEAS EXPERT IS WHAT IS NEEDED on forensic is needed.
owenon123
on June 25th, 2008 3:20 pmTo: Mackydog:
GOD IS GREAT ALL THE TIME: THEY DO HAVE PEOPLE OUT THERE WITH MORAL JUDGMENT.
Mackydog, I read your response this morning in the Archives.
However, I must tell you I do not agree with most of your assumptions but I do believe what you said about the “Constant aerial surveillance.”
Do you remember the allegation about the Joint Services torturing I think two or three people on the linden highway sometime this year, burning the victims’ bodies and faces? Does this sound familiar to you, I guess so Mackydog.
I like reasoning with you Mackydog you’re a smart man.
Now that we know what the ballistics test shows, and “Other senior sources within Guyana Police and Defence Forces have also declined to comment publicly on the results of the ballistics analysis, although they acknowledged being aware of the findings.”
In addition, Stabroek news reporter went on to state as follows:
“Ballistics tests on the spent shells found at the scene of the slaughter of eight miners at the Lindo Creek camp show no link between weapons used by gunmen connected to the Rondell Rawlins gang, well-placed sources in the police forensic unit have disclosed.”
Dredge owner Leonard Arokium, a land surveyor by profession “Repeated earlier claims that the killings could not have been the work of the gang that the security forces are pursuing.” Using a topographical map of the area to support his claims that the gunmen were moving away from the camp and not moving forward the camp which would’ve bring them into confrontation with the security forces. No gunmen wants opposition like that trust me, so they would not risk that type on confrontation with security forces, which would out number them both with weapons and men.
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 5:33 pm:owenon123,
Thanks for the post. I was hoping you read my response to you last night as you requested. It’s ok that you don’t totally agree with me, none of us knows the truth, we’re all suggesting and venting our opinions and beliefs.
I don’t remember the incident you mentioned of the three people in Linden who were burnt by the joint forces. Sorry.
As for the ballistics test, the report is that the bullets were not from Fineman’s guns, but remember, bullets may not have been fired into the miners’ bodies when the miners were being tortured since there is no evidence that the men died from gunshot wounds only by being sledged hammered in the head and by chainsaw (as per the bodies being found burnt to ashes). Maybe the people who raised the alarm to Mr. Arokium that the camp was wiped out had access to the miners’ camp after the massacre (since I believe that Fineman and the miners had a relationship and the 2 callers knew of the relationship) one or both of the callers (or an accomplice to the callers) planted the spent shells in the camp (or gave the shells to Fineman to plant, how did the callers know of the massacre?) Remember, this is the jungle, the army trains everywhere in the jungle and the soldiers do not necessarily collect shells whenever they’re used so finding some is pretty easy, one does not have to possess a gun to have spent shells in one’s immediate surroundings in the jungle. Remember also, when soldiers are training and is carrying out an exercise, whatever kit is lost during that exercise is lost, the soldiers never returns to the field to find back their kit, and sometimes loaded magazines, mess pans, bayonets, etc. fall out of pockets and are lost.
The joint forces will obviously know of the results of the tests…they did the tests, but I don’t think the Joint services will immediately divulge that info. because it is better to have more facts before revealing such information. They’re doing the correct thing.
For your last paragraph owenon123, I believe that Fineman’ s gang never crossed the Berbice River as Mr Arokium suggested, Fineman could have been hiding out in the tree tops while everyone else passed below instead of crossing the B’ce River and then double backing.
What you think now owenon123? Read my post for today, let me know.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 1:12 am:lololololol…..I’m starting to think that you are either the moderator or the editor of this paper. Macky i know you stay on top with your current affairs that why i know you should remember the men being tortured on the highway. Two of the men were Buxtonians, so nothing is going to come out of it. They have since returned to Trinidad where they will never be tortured again. Check the archives you should find it there. When you finish reading those articles tell me who is known for torture in Guyana then read RK post about dogs and eggs comment and tell me if it applies here.
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 5:35 pm:owenon123, I forgot to thank you for the compliment, the respect is mutual, RBAY.
owenon123
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 5:40 pm:This is the continuation of my view Mackydog:
My question is who the mystery gang of these vicious gunmen is and what their motive was. We now know that no evidence leads to ‘fineman’ and his crew, so who is it. Who is the closest contact in the area to the camp? I am still asking the question why the security forces did not see any signs of a blazing fire in the jungle. Do they go out in the day in search of ‘fineman’ and his crew?
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 25th, 2008 8:43 pm:owenon123,
Maybe there is a mystery gang, maybe not, but the motive at this point is survival and still (as the primary motive was ) to cause fear in the citizens of Guyana to prove the inferiority of the government as per security to protect the citizenry with an result of the people uprising to destabilise the government.
I don’t agree with you saying “We now know that no evidence leads to Fineman and his crew” because the bullet casings did not come from his weapons. The shells could have been planted there (read my post below). There are a lot of settlements in the jungle bro, the joint services can’t check them all out same time, Fineman is still my main suspect.
I would suppose the joint services patrol day and night.
pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 1:18 am:MAcky i like the last part of your comment but the first half i have issues with. hasn’t every Government in Guyana since the 50s made that claim about being destabilise by forces who don’t want them to succeed. Are we still to believe this after all these years and are you say thats the reason why this Jagdeo Administration has failed so miserably? Because i think thats crap.
Caribbeanqueen
on June 25th, 2008 4:12 pmIs this all what guyana has become. When I first came tot eh Middle East I used to hang a large flag of Guyana in my living room and tell my friends and neighbors good things of Guyana. Now I am too ashame to say that I am a Guyanese.
Clifton”Berry” wong was my uncle. He was a good man a hard working father,and a selfless man. I can remember my uncle very well from my vactions I spent in Berbice as a child, I can remember his wedding day I can remember him promising to bring a Kumudi for me from out of the bush, I can remember the numerous stoories he told me of the bush.
Ishmael I was too small to remember Mr. Arokium but my older cousins remembered him.
I would wish people be more careful in their comments and only make realistic ones.
I’m praying for you Uncle Berry may the murders recieve a similar and even worst punishment in the deepest part of hell.
I’m praying for my Aunt Sharmin” Collete” Wong my cousins, Alicia , Ama