Toolbox

US pathologist to probe camp remains

Jagdeo says police have different ballistics info

President Bharrat Jagdeo yesterday said that an independent forensic pathologist will arrive here soon to conduct an investigation into the slaughter of eight miners at a remote diamond mining camp in the country’s hinterland.

Jagdeo also said that the police have contradicted a story carried in yesterday’s Stabroek News where it was stated that the spent shells found at the Lindo Creek mining camp did not match any retrieved at the scenes of crimes thought to have been committed by Rondell Rawlins and his gang. Stabroek News was told on Tuesday that analysis conducted earlier in the day showed no match of the shells. However, it was stated yesterday that a further check late Tuesday showed that some of the shells matched those used at the slaughter in Bartica. Stabroek News had given the force an opportunity on Tuesday to respond to reports that there had been no match but the force declined. Reports that there was no ballistics match were carried by several media houses yesterday. Official police ballistics reports have been greeted with increasing public skepticism in recent months.

Jagdeo told a press conference yesterday at the Office of the President that after reading the story in yesterday’s Stabroek News he enquired from Police Commissioner Henry Greene about the ballistics findings and was told that it was at complete variance to what was reported in the press. Jagdeo however did not want to disclose what the findings are and he said it was not clear whether the police are willing to release the results at this stage. Police have frequently issued ballistics information immediately after the commission of major crimes.

Meanwhile, calling for an end to speculation, Jagdeo announced that the administration had requested from the United States through its embassy here assistance in the area of forensic pathology to examine the remains to determine the manner of their deaths and also how long they might have been killed. Government pathologist, Nehaul Singh had visited Lindo Creek on Sunday along with a team of police investigators during which time, a number of 7.62 spent shells were found along with documents. (See other story on page 8.)

Leonard Arokium, the owner of the dredge and camp at Lindo Creek has repeatedly accused the military of carrying out the killings of the eight men. The joint services have since denied the claims, saying that the allegations were unthinkable and unimaginable. “These people were brutally murdered and the entire country should be outraged,” the president said. He added that his administration plans to fully investigate the incident, while assuring that the findings would be made public. “I am urging all of us not to speculate…we have a syndrome in Guyana that as soon as something happens everyone seems to know,” the head of state remarked, asserting that citizens should allow the independent inquiry to go on. Arokium had said that on Saturday night he was visited by several senior government officials who were adamant that the attack had been mounted by Fineman’s gang.

On the issue of a commission of inquiry (CI), one of many recommendations made by the Alliance For Change to investigate the matter, Jagdeo said he has seen a letter written by the party’s leader, Raphael Trotman on the matter and the two of them have since had a talk. He said while he had not decided whether they would go the route of a CI, if one is to be done it would have to include the other recent massacres to determine whether there was any political involvement. “I have not decided whether a Commission of Inquiry is the best vehicle, but we think that external expertise at this time is the best route to go,” Jagdeo asserted.
In a letter to Jagdeo which was released to the media on Monday Trotman called for the administration to immediately appoint an independent commission of inquiry with an overseas forensic pathologist to probe the slaying of the eight miners. In the letter the AFC leader said from the details, anecdotal information received from persons resident in the Berbice River area where the miners were killed and elsewhere, many questions have been raised as to the identity of those responsible for this atrocity. “Such an accusation is most unwarranted at this time, and if not addressed at the highest level, could have dire consequences and implications for the rule of law…” the AFC said in its letter to the head of state.

The party noted that coming in the aftermath of the most recent massacres at Lusignan and Bartica, coupled with the need to validate and give due recognition to the role and dedication of the joint services and more particularly, the Guyana Defence Force during these testing times, a CI was necessary. The AFC further implored the president to take the request seriously, and in so doing consult the parliamentary opposition parties on his decision to identify and name commissioners to the commission. Asked about the findings of the police investigations so far, Jagdeo said from the internal analyses being done the results differ from public speculation. “I have seen the internal analyses which suggest a theory (of) what took place,” Jagdeo noted. The security forces had been severely criticized for their initial bungling of the Christmas Falls operation where they encountered a group of gunmen. One high-ranking military official had told this newspaper that the army was not involved in the June 6, operation at Christmas Falls.

Asked about this yesterday, Jagdeo said while a joint services team had been set up to specifically hunt down Rawlins and his gang there still exist different operational groups within the security forces which would undertake independent operations. The military official said it was inconceivable that a major operation in dense jungle was launched and the country’s premier law enforcement arm was not involved.

Jagdeo also mentioned that following the escape of the gunmen from Christmas Falls, the Guyana Forestry Commission had issued an advisory for all miners and loggers to clear the area. “We have to ask the question whether this group of eight miners was not told and why or whether they were told and why they did not leave,” the president said.

Tortured

Senior joint services officials have admitted that there were a number of outstanding questions to be answered. Stabroek News had been told that lawmen who visited the Lindo Creek camp site found evidence of some of the miners being tortured. This newspaper has been informed that one of the skulls found at the location had an impression suggesting that the person was beaten in the head. According to information reaching Stabroek News, on arrival at the camp all the lawmen found were burnt bones. Reports are that the camp site has been sealed off to facilitate the work of the US forensic expert.

Comments

About Comments

We thank all readers who have contributed to this site since its relaunch. This section of the website is intended to provide a forum for reasoned and reasonable debate on the newspaper's content and we hope that readers make full use of it as many have already done.

The comments section is an extension of the newspaper and what it has become well known for over its history: accuracy, balance and fairness.
In recent weeks a large proportion of the comments posted have contained attacks on other users, slander, coarse language and profanity. Comments of these types will be deleted.
Comments which contain gratuitous and incendiary references to race and ethnicity will be struck.
We reserve the right to edit/delete comments for length, any libel and taste. We moderate all comments so be patient while your message waits to be approved.
Curious about the little images next to each commenter's name ? Go here and sign up using the same email address you used to register for Stabroeknews.com then upload your image and confirm it.

36 Responses to “US pathologist to probe camp remains”

gt2dbone
on June 26th, 2008 6:54 am

WELL PRESI BAAI WAKE UP!! WHERE WAS HE WHEN WE WERE WAITING WITH ABATED BREATHS FOR COMMENTS ON THE ROGER KHAN SAGA? WHY ARE WE ONLY NOW HEARING A BULLETIN WAS ISSUED FOR THE AREA TO BE CLEARED? WHY DIDN’T THE POLICE SAY THAT AT THE BEGINNING? DO YOU THINK THOSE MEN WOULD HAVE REMAINED THERE KNOWING CRIMINALS WITH MORE WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION THAN OUR JS WOULD ENDANGER THEIR LIVES? WAS THE OFFICER WHO THE WOMAN ALLEDGED BORROW HER CELL QUESTIONED? WOULD THE OFFICERS WHO WERE IN THAT AREA BE SUBJECTED TO LIE DETECTORS TESTS? WOULD THEIR WEAPONS BE SUBJECTED TO TESTING TO CONFIRM/DENY WHETHER THOSE WEAPONS WERE USED IN THAT INCIDENT? IF OFFICERS WERE TO GO THROUGH THESE THINGS CAN WE BE ASSURED THAT THEY WOULD BE EXPOSED AND BROUGHT TO TRIAL? OR WOULD THEY BE ALLOWED TO ESCAPE LIKE “SKINNY”

[Reply to this]
amen-ra
on June 26th, 2008 7:39 am

People would always speculate when the govt is not being honest with the citizen, so when the govt get honest with the people there will be no speculations until then that’s all we have.

amen-ra-ta

[Reply to this]
Caribbeanqueen
on June 26th, 2008 8:27 am

I think it is time for Jagdeo to go. He is doing nothing to protect Guyananese nor to improve the standard of living. Everytime I speak with a friend or family member the only thing they could say is that they want to leave Guyana, things are too hard there.

[Reply to this]
raulcedras
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 10:07 am:
I support your call. JAGDEO MUST GO ALONG WITH ALL HIS MINISTERS, POLICE CHIEF, CRIME CHIEF, ARMY CHIEF. They all are wasting the tax payers $$$$ doing nuttin.

[Reply to this]
rk
on June 26th, 2008 8:36 am

I hereby challenge Stabroek News to either back up yesterdays story of - Ballistics Show No Link - with credible sources of this information or issue a retraction of the story.

[Reply to this]
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 10:25 am:
rk’ …I think I read Stabroeknews saying that they first got the news of the ballistics to be that the shells did not match Finemans guns and when SN gave the authorities the chance to say something (before printing the story) the experts declined any comment, so naturally SN printed what they had. Today it is claimed that some of the shells bears a resemblance to Finemans guns and that is also what SN printed after the fact that no one else wanted to comment on the ballistics findings. I think SN’s story is credible and so a retraction of the story is not necessary. Lets be fair rk.

[Reply to this]
kmatt
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 11:11 am:
mackydog

I hope u don’t believe these imcompetent investigaters.. Every ballistics test is linked to fineman gang..Robbery fineman gang, Shotout fineman gang, Massacre fineman gang…Mackydog you get the picture… It is the easiest excuse the administration can come up with..when u have no clue, it is easy to blame the obivious…

FOR THE LAST TIME, THERE ARE MORE THAN ONE GANG OPERATING OUT OF GUYANA..IS THAT SO HARD TO BELIEVE..

mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 2:05 pm:
kmatt’
It’s so funny how I often read bloggers complimenting Stabroek news of being a stalwart in news, how SN is the only one giving the truth in news, SN investigators and news men are on the ball, all kinds of commendations and kudos to Stabroek news… now you have to be the only one so far to refer to Stabroeknews investigators as “incompetent investigators”.
I don’t think all the other bloggers can be considered wrong about SN or stupid and you alone know different.
diatonic
on June 26th, 2008 8:38 am

Something very fishy is going on here. Why is this government doing this to the people of Guyana? It is stated that Jagdeo did not want to disclose what the findings are and he said it was not clear whether the police are willing to release the results at this stage. This is giving us the impression that they are indeed hiding the truth from us.

[Reply to this]
rdman
on June 26th, 2008 9:37 am

I know the evidence is tampered with already,but I am still glad an expert from the U.S is coming,let see what happens.

[Reply to this]
kmatt
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 11:13 am:
rdman,

this i can’t wait to see…i can forsee more broken promises..

[Reply to this]
rupman
on June 26th, 2008 9:45 am

The Police/Government have always been quick (within a day or so) to link major crimes with “Fineman’s’ Gang.
So why, after more than four days, the Police have not been able to give a clear response whether the murders included Fineman’s weapons or someone else’s?
I am certain that, with the amount of spent shells that the Police now have from ‘fineman’s’ weapons, there should have been a quick evaluation.
Come on, Mr President, something is definitely amiss and you need to start getting answers quickly. Your people are waiting and watching your leadership.

[Reply to this]
rk
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 10:20 am:
I am thinking that The President is awaiting a foreign forensic team because of the accusations being placed on the JS and the GPF. Would the public trust a local forensic team?

Nevertheless, I don’t believe this would prove anything significant as the crime scene could have already be tampered with, with regards to the ballistics and the shells. The foreign team would however be able to better prove the time of death and manner of death though this would not stop the speculations.

I again challenge Stabroek News to either back up yesterdays story of - Ballistics Show No Link - with credible sources of this information or issue a retraction of the story.

[Reply to this]
raulcedras
on June 26th, 2008 10:04 am

Hope this pathologist is not like Bernard Kerik, if it is we doom.

[Reply to this]
carolscott
on June 26th, 2008 10:38 am

Jagdeo is a “true politician”. Just look at the US, these guys will do and say ANYTHING.. anything to remain in power, anything to win, anything to appear right…and who could blame them…..being on the outside looking in SUCKS…just ask the affected minority in Guyana….. LOL (waiting for outrage from his overseas “contingent”…)

[Reply to this]
On3LoV3
on June 26th, 2008 10:41 am

I DON’T BELIEVE

[Reply to this]
mackydog
on June 26th, 2008 10:55 am

Firstly, I must congratulate the President for heeding the call for international assistance by inviting a forensic pathologist from the US to investigate this massacre. I must also commend him in liasoning with the AFC leadership in making this decision. This goes to show the Guyanese diaspora that the President is willing to cooperate with the opposition parties on matters of importance positive to our country’s development, quiet unlike what some people claimed to the contrary in the recent past.

I know now that we will get as close to an accurate account as to how what happened at the camp, and mostly the TIME it happened.

I would also hope that this act of political cooperation continues between other political parties and the government to positively find solutions to our nations problems for a common goal in making our country prosperous and a better place to live. The message could serve to transend to us bloggers that (beginning with you) positive things are being done and we too can stop critising everything that goes on and begin to submit positive posts offering suggestions on how to better a situation instead of saying things that makes Guyana appear to be the incurable soar on Mother Earth.

I know we have a far way to go, resistance to your efforts is enormous, but this is a good start, let’s get the job done. Once again, congrats Mr. President.

[Reply to this]
kmatt
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 11:16 am:
Mackydog,

YOU HAVE CONFIRMED MY EVERY THOUGHT..YOU ARE IN DENIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reply to this]
rk
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 12:17 pm:
I gather you have issues with the administration but who doesn’t in any country and under any administration, the story is the same.

Once you look outside the box, you will find that the entire hemisphere is in chaos from the kidnappings in Trinidad to the riots in Haiti. There is democracy for you.

One can also look at the concentration of drug use in a society as it relates to crime. As drug use peaks, so does crime. One can attribute crime to violence on TV and music, to poverty, lack of hope but it takes the individual and the family to overcome this as it is not out of reach.

We need guidance in our country and it starts from the family. Guyana’s children needs religion and education whether religious or secular and less of the drugs, TV , music etc and all of this starts from the home whether they are single parents or not. The byproducts of poverty can bring out doctors and lawyers too.

Blame government all you want but I assure you, the story is the same throughout the world. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.

I know I might get posters that doesn’t agree with me but Dax was one example of a person that dreamed to make it the right way. Dax was not blessed with the finer things in life in High School. He wasn’t rich but he did his best.

mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 1:56 pm:
kmatt,
you should tell me that I’m lost, lost as to what you’re assuming I’m denial with/about. Since you can suggest I’m in denial, be brave and inform me of what I’m in denial about, explain yourself…and you can do it in caps too if you so chose to.
From what you have said, I feel contended to say you are one of the people I refer to when I wrote above about bloggers who are “critising everything that goes on….saying things that makes Guyana appear to be an incurable soar on Mother Earth”.
I’m awaiting your response.

pepie
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 1:41 pm:
Macky Nice speak…..thats one for the books. You know how to play the game. I too am willing to sit back and see what he do with this opportunity.

[Reply to this]
kmatt
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 8:11 pm:
Mackydog,

First i am neither pro PPP or PNC, but i am pro humanity.. Secondly, it would be nice if you thought outside the box..a good detective does not believe eveything he or she hears…third, yes i am fustrated by the nonsense, that is being told by the government. Come on Macky, from all the articles that you have read, does anything the government said make sense?

Inconclusion, i love guyana, and i want the best for it’s people, but when you have a government that tries to belittle one’s intelligence, it irks me to the core.

Macky, try to think outside the box, if u were impartial and objective you would gained my respect as a blogger. But the fact you are not pro humanity and pro PPP that respect has been lost..God Bless!
AFINAM
on June 26th, 2008 12:17 pm

WHAT is the point that Stabroek News is trying to show when they put a picture of President Jagdeo and a Picture of Roger Khan at the same place.

GET IT?

Stabroek News is not reporting the news. They are creating the news.

[Reply to this]
Voice-Max
on June 26th, 2008 1:07 pm

And the plot thickens…

Now, its good to have an independent forensic pathologist and all, but someone is going to have to take their report and follow up the investigation… will that person be independent? Well, Probably independent enough… but they also need to be adequately trained and have the available resources to properly complete this investigation… or they may never solve this crime

[Reply to this]
GT_BANA
on June 26th, 2008 1:09 pm

So far I have not heard anything about the woman and man who called Mr. Arokium to informed him about the murders of his employees. Are the police investigating this lead???? SN can you give us an update on this matter?? One would think an investigation would be ongoing into this matter.

[Reply to this]
pepie
on June 26th, 2008 1:33 pm

Macky… I second you here, Stabroek New did an excellent job. Further, why is it that we have to hear about the shells presumably bear resemblance to fineman guns from the President. This is not the President job. The mere fact that this is coming from his mouth makes you wonder what in heavens is going on. The people to make this determination are the ballistic experts.
What we should have had is a press conference with the Commissioner, Crime Chief, Lead investigator and the Ballistic expert, answering the many questions. Not the President who have no expertise on Policing providing this information.

Take this from me…..unless this comes from any of the persons in position stated above I am not believing one word.

It is time this president stop this thing. First it was his Prime Minister and Home Affairs Minister, trying to coercer Mr Arokium into believing that it was Fineman and his gang who committed this crime - even before an investigation started and now it is the President. I bet ya’ll that a member from the Ruling party is going to come out an undeniably claim it was fineman. The PR Machine is now in full swing. I now gone feel sorry fuh dem police.

This special squad that we are now hearing about (which seems to be operating like the Phantom – remember who first coin that word at a press conference) should be polygraph. I can see the Govt. trying to make this squad legit like the Sanata Deal. Watch and see,

Stabroek News please ensure that we know for sure that the members of this special squad are all active Police Office with no break in service, and should have a reasonable amount of years of experience, on the job. I don’t think it is wise to put an office with 6 months or a year experience on a mission like this. Also we want to know when they join the service, when was this assignment given to them, did they breach their mandate.

Lets get to work

[Reply to this]
GT_BANA
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 3:46 pm:
I agree with you Pepie. The president needs to let the experts do there job instead of doing it for them. I am beginning to question his leadership skills.

[Reply to this]
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 6:02 pm:
pepie,
It’s so funny, I’m not surprised that the President is the one that has to come out and speak, it’s funny because EVERYBODY else (other than me) has blamed the government for EVERYTHING from the President creating crime, the President let out Shawn Brown in ‘02, the govt responsible for the massacre in Bartica, the govt did it in Lusignan, the President cause accident on the highway with mini bus and cow, the govt cause this the President cause that, the govt cause dogs to bite up fruit thief, what the President doing about this and about that,on and on, and the President not doing anything about it, why the President have nothing to say about the garbage in the city etc.

I at one time got so fed up of reading about what the President was not doing that I posted asking why must the President be the one to have to explain everything, the President is a manager of our country, he has to manage WITH cooperation of the staff he has, we should not expect to see the President, Rohee and Luncheon literally pick up guns, get in a police squad car and go to Buxton looking for criminals, but that’s exactly what some people was asking of them.

pepie, (this is meant generally, nothing personal with you) y’all asked for the President to do it, say this and that, be here, there and everywhere, be like pot- salt in everything now he did y’all don’t want him to and is questioning his duties of what he should and should not do.

Confucious said “Be careful what you ask for cause you just might get it all…and then some”

Y’all asked for it, now y’all get it…deal with it.

[Reply to this]
gt2dbone
on June 26th, 2008 3:02 pm

taken from today’s kaiteur news…………….”AK-47 rifle, ammo found near Unamco Road
A Joint Services team has found an AK-47 assault rifle and some 400 matching rounds buried near the Unamco Road.
Police officials said that the team, acting on information, located the weapon and ammunition at around 15:00 hrs yesterday.
One police source said that the weapon was discovered during a routine search. Another said that a prisoner provided the information.”

Is this the weapon that has miraculously turned up? Did fineman bury it and made good his escape? or is it the army weapon that was actually used to kill those innocent miners?

[Reply to this]
GT_BANA
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 4:29 pm:
Hmm… both police statements are different. Who and where did the police received the information they were acting on???

[Reply to this]
mackydog
In reply to the above comment on June 26th, 2008 6:11 pm:
if this report is true, I did remember saying in a previous post that Fineman may have stashed weapons aroung his camp just in case he had to run. I did say too that the miners may have been keeping stuff for Fineman and eventually covetted it after cochoring on him. Out of my 2 suspicions, I got 1 correct so far, let’s see if I’ll get the other 1 later. I have no doubt I will.

[Reply to this]
motherofmine
on June 26th, 2008 3:56 pm

GUYS GUYS GUYS,
WE ARE MISSING SOMETHING HERE, UNTIL WE HAVE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTERS AND A PRESSURE GROUP IN GUYANA THE GOVERNMENT WILL CONTINUE TO GET AWAY WITH THIS TYPE OF THINGS.

WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WERE ALLOWING PEOPLE TO OPEN TV STATIONS, A FRIEND OF MINE TRIED TO OPEN A STATION THEY PLACED HIM BEFORE THE COURT ON A FALSE CHARGE AND RAN HIM OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
MY FRIEND HAS A PH,D IN JOURNALISM AND WAS ASKING TO BRING IN HIDDEN CAMERAS TO DO INVESTIGATIVE WORK TO EXPOSE FRAUDS, THEY RAN HIM OUT.
GUYANA HAS NEVER HAD A LIGIT GOVERNMENT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME, I SAY THROW THEM OUT. WILL THE REAL PRESIDENT PLEASE STAND UP!!!!!!!!!

[Reply to this]
roliescarface
on June 26th, 2008 5:32 pm

I need to re-enforce my statement about the Guyana police Force and what they need.
Firstly, and this is very important. The idea of a US pathologist helping the GPF sounds promising. However, my question is, what sort of lab equipment and technology does the GPF has that would help the pathologist with his investigation?

Secondly, the Army, Police and Joint services should all be investigated to make sure that they were not indeed involve in this carnage. Having said that, what all these forces need is to be properly trained.
… How to use a gun efficiently and effectively.
… Train dogs and officers to track down criminals.
… Train officers how to be Forensic Scientists.
… Train officers how to detect and apprehend a would be criminal.
… Train officers survival skills.
… Officers should be trained how to use computers, modern technology and
how to operate certain technical equipment.
… Etc., etc., etc., You get the picture.

Thirdly, all forces in Guyana need better technology and equipment. There is a need for better prisons. The court houses need to be made more secure and the legal system needs to be reformed.

Ladies and Gentlemen, something is terribly wrong if we cannot rely on our law forces to protect us. If a law person commits a crime that person to be charged, sent to prison for a very long time and on top of that he or she should be removed from that position with all possibilities of never being a law person again.
We need our officers to protect and serve our country but they should be equipped to do so. We also need our officers to know that given this power is not to abuse it but to use it with respect. All officers should follow and obey the law as well, and know if they break the law themselves then they should face the consequences.

Guyana is a Co-operative Republic and we should all be cooperative. We should all work hand in hand to not only protect our own interests but the country’s interest as well.

[Reply to this]
hitman4hire
on June 26th, 2008 6:42 pm

Well by now,I am used to anything when it comes to Guyana,so nothing surprises me. The Joint Forces might say they ran tests and the results are that it is indeed the weapon used to kill the miners or they might say it does not match,then couple weeks or days from now we will hear that weapon was used for some other killing.

Guyana- Land of many mysteries and surprises oh,did I forget to mention mass murders………

[Reply to this]
Carl
on June 26th, 2008 9:57 pm

Bharrat Jagdeo and his retinue of sycophants and jesters are so discredited that their comments/views are solicited more for their laugh value and to confirm their lack of truthfulness than for any expectation that the truth will ever come from them.

[Reply to this]
A380100
on June 27th, 2008 1:14 am

You mean the same US that took Dr. Jagan out of office, as Mr. Jagdeo said in New York recently. Therefore, why is he asking for their help now??

[Reply to this]